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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Skyward Sword story inconsistencies (SPOILERS!)

F0X said:
S.Peelman said:
F0X said:
The Zelda timeline is not even an actual timeline to begin with. It's really a Zelda multiverse in which Nintendo's writers can get away with anything and everything.

Recently, a timeline was sort of made canon because of it's inclusion in the 'Hyrule Historia' book, which is an official Nintendo release. This basically also confirmes all games occur in the same universe, over a span of many millenia.

You are right that the timeline is not an actual literal telling of history, like in say Star Wars, however. The book mentions a sort of clause. All stories in the games are 'Legends', like the titles say, which means they have been passed down for like thousends of generations and because stories change over time, details can differ between games. For example, to Wind Waker, something like Ocarina of Time happened. To NES Zelda (the original), something like A Link to the Past happened. And so on. The splitting in OoT occurs because of supernatural means, the way the timeline splits from OoT to ALttP is still a matter of debate though as it is not explicitely said in the book. Most have interpreted it as 'Link dies', of which I'm not a fan off, that way you could have a million timelines.

So yes, Nintendo writers can get away with anything .


Unfortunately, believeing that they exist in the same universe also means a giant gap or inconsistency in continuity. Remember the part in Ocarina of Time in which Link failed and Hyrule wasn't saved? I didn't. Because it didn't happen. The split timeline thing happened. That's perfectly acceptable. But since Link didn't fail in OoT's storyline, there's a plot inconsistency.

Unless, of course, the Zelda timeline is a multiverse. In that case, anything is possible. You could get a Game Over in Ocarina of Time and, oh, there's a branch universe created in which A Link to the Past takes place. If I could fix my problem with embedding videos, I have one that explains this idea rather well...

...nope. Okay, here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1TSpfPFNlE

Khuutra once cited an interesting theory whereby the theft of the Silver Gauntlets created a third timeline, one equivalent to Link simply failing (but not getting killed), because the theft of the Silver Gauntlets did not occur in a stable time loop like the draining of the Kakariko Well did. The silver gauntlets are, presumably, unstolen in the first future, and Link has to go back to get them, leaving behind a world where five of the six sages were liberated and the hero of time simply vanished from time to acquire a needed tool. Thus we would have Ganondorf's victory, but also Sages empowered to stop him (creating the war referenced in LttP's backstory)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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S.Peelman said:
fordy said:

Link is still in posession of the Triforce at that stage. Perhaps the Triforce limits one wish per person? (considering how the Links from the 3 Zelda games who wish on the Triforce are different incarnates of the Hero), though you'd have to assume that the Link to the Past Link made all of his wishes as one big wish to return Hyrule back to a peaceful state imagined in his mind.

In Wind Waker and A Link to the Past, I believe the Triforce splits again after one has done a succesful wish. Which indeed means only one wish per person, unless you'd find it again. Not 100% sure though, I'm going off memory here.

*youtubing all game endings now...*

At least I know it's different in Ocarina, when Ganondorf makes his wish, it is not granted because he is not 'pure of heart'. The Triforce splits and he is only left with 'Power'.

 

As mentioned in Skyward Sword, very few mortals are able to handle the power of the complete Triforce. I'd say Ganondorf's intervention showed that he was only given the piece that resembled his desires the most.

I think I do recall the Triforce splitting in Wind Waker. It stayed put in Skyward Sword...Link to the Past is very controversial, mainly because the Triforce did a "reverse join" effect just to show the "The End" screen. That could be interpreted any kind of way. Adventure of Link didn't show much about the Triforce after Zelda awakened..



Mr Khan said:
F0X said:
S.Peelman said:
F0X said:
The Zelda timeline is not even an actual timeline to begin with. It's really a Zelda multiverse in which Nintendo's writers can get away with anything and everything.

Recently, a timeline was sort of made canon because of it's inclusion in the 'Hyrule Historia' book, which is an official Nintendo release. This basically also confirmes all games occur in the same universe, over a span of many millenia.

You are right that the timeline is not an actual literal telling of history, like in say Star Wars, however. The book mentions a sort of clause. All stories in the games are 'Legends', like the titles say, which means they have been passed down for like thousends of generations and because stories change over time, details can differ between games. For example, to Wind Waker, something like Ocarina of Time happened. To NES Zelda (the original), something like A Link to the Past happened. And so on. The splitting in OoT occurs because of supernatural means, the way the timeline splits from OoT to ALttP is still a matter of debate though as it is not explicitely said in the book. Most have interpreted it as 'Link dies', of which I'm not a fan off, that way you could have a million timelines.

So yes, Nintendo writers can get away with anything .


Unfortunately, believeing that they exist in the same universe also means a giant gap or inconsistency in continuity. Remember the part in Ocarina of Time in which Link failed and Hyrule wasn't saved? I didn't. Because it didn't happen. The split timeline thing happened. That's perfectly acceptable. But since Link didn't fail in OoT's storyline, there's a plot inconsistency.

Unless, of course, the Zelda timeline is a multiverse. In that case, anything is possible. You could get a Game Over in Ocarina of Time and, oh, there's a branch universe created in which A Link to the Past takes place. If I could fix my problem with embedding videos, I have one that explains this idea rather well...

...nope. Okay, here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1TSpfPFNlE

Khuutra once cited an interesting theory whereby the theft of the Silver Gauntlets created a third timeline, one equivalent to Link simply failing (but not getting killed), because the theft of the Silver Gauntlets did not occur in a stable time loop like the draining of the Kakariko Well did. The silver gauntlets are, presumably, unstolen in the first future, and Link has to go back to get them, leaving behind a world where five of the six sages were liberated and the hero of time simply vanished from time to acquire a needed tool. Thus we would have Ganondorf's victory, but also Sages empowered to stop him (creating the war referenced in LttP's backstory)


That reminds me... what's up with the Song of Storms? Link learns it in the the future from the windmill guy, but goes back in time to play it to him...



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S.Peelman said:
fordy said:

Link is still in posession of the Triforce at that stage. Perhaps the Triforce limits one wish per person? (considering how the Links from the 3 Zelda games who wish on the Triforce are different incarnates of the Hero), though you'd have to assume that the Link to the Past Link made all of his wishes as one big wish to return Hyrule back to a peaceful state imagined in his mind.

In Wind Waker and A Link to the Past, I believe the Triforce splits again after one has done a succesful wish. Which indeed means only one wish per person, unless you'd find it again. Not 100% sure though, I'm going off memory here.

*youtubing all game endings now...*

At least I know it's different in Ocarina, when Ganondorf makes his wish, it is not granted because he is not 'pure of heart'. The Triforce splits and he is only left with 'Power'.

To add to my previous post, what happens when the Triforce splits? I'm guessing it wouldn't just stay on the ground somewhere or anything, that they might return to some designated area. It would explain why it's kept split in Skyward sword and Link is forced to retrieve each piece.

However, Adventure of Link's story explained that the Triforce remained as a whole until the Triforce of Courage was taken and hidden in the Grand Palace because of the fear of it's absolute power. It would be hard to imagine that it remained together for so long and not one wish was made to it. Also, Ganondorf made a wish in the storyline to Link to the Past, which turned the Golden Land into the Dark World, yet it remained intact by the end of the game.



F0X said:


That reminds me... what's up with the Song of Storms? Link learns it in the the future from the windmill guy, but goes back in time to play it to him...


I laughed at that. The windmill guy was reponsible for his own downfall by teaching Link that song.



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Mr Khan said:
You forget The WindWaker, where the King's wish drowns the land of Hyrule forever.

The Triforce's wishing power seems to operate under a rule-set similar to the Dragonballs, dispersing after the wish so that they can't just be endlessly abused, otherwise the climax of WindWaker would have gone

Daphneus Hyrule: Drown Hyrule
Ganondorf: Don't drown Hyrule
Daphneus: Do it!
Ganondorf: No!
Daphneus: Yah huh!
Ganondorf: Nuh-huh!

et al.

Link wished to destroy Demise in the present.

The inconsistency in Skyward Sword seems to be in how they treat Time Travel. The revelation that Zelda had to go back in time to take the place of the Goddess to seal away Demise (and eventually be awakened by Link in the present again) implies a stable time-loop theory of time-travel, whereby traveling through time was required to create the status quo, similar to the story of the first Terminator film.
However, the finale of the game has Ghirahim go back in time with Zelda to revive Demise early on, and Link go back in time to kill Demise, which he did, in the past. That dicks with the whole thing, because if Demise was revived but then killed, he's never around to set the events of the game in motion in the first place, and there we have time paradox. Unless Link's victory created another split timeline, but that's a whole separate kettle of fish


Well, there is one teensy speck of a detail that can set these events straight.

Link didn't destroy demise, he defeated Ganon/Ganondorf/the first incarnation of the evil that haunts the series. What this means for the story....is anyone's guess. I mean, we don't really know what happens after the fight is over. supposeably the remaining evil of Ganon is sealed in the master sword, but that simply cannot be true because otherwise the curse would have never worked since Ganons soul would have been trapped inside the sword.

What this may mean is that after defeating Ganon, history was set back in its course, demise was created from the remains of Ganons existence and sealed and the time loop has made a full round. We can't say "that's impossible" with all certainty since we are never shown what transpires in the past after the battle and are sent to the present only after the triforce had been used.

Since Ganon, a wielder of one of the triforce pieces cursed Link and Zelda to an endless spiral of conflict we can assume that the triforce cannot make one wish stronger than the other, ergo if Ganon cursed the others, than the wish to completely destroy Ganon cannot be allowed, at most it will vanquish him physically until he is reborn again. 

Like i said, this is a small itsy bitsy detail that cannot be totally disproved simply because we were not shown what happened to the past world after the fight with Ganon. For all we know, after the fight, demise was created yet again.



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fordy said:

As mentioned in Skyward Sword, very few mortals are able to handle the power of the complete Triforce. I'd say Ganondorf's intervention showed that he was only given the piece that resembled his desires the most.

I think I do recall the Triforce splitting in Wind Waker. It stayed put in Skyward Sword...Link to the Past is very controversial, mainly because the Triforce did a "reverse join" effect just to show the "The End" screen. That could be interpreted any kind of way. Adventure of Link didn't show much about the Triforce after Zelda awakened..

Yes, I just rewatched the Skyward Sword ending.

At least I think we can explain why Link still has to defeat Demise. Fi the Sword Spirit instructs Link to wish Demise (or in the present day; The Immortal) to be exterminated. I think he does this in a very literal way, Link wished the Immortal is dead. This happens, but what he should have wished for is to erase Demise from history!

The Triforce remains a strange thing, it indeed stays at the top of the statue, and doesn't split after Link's wish... I don't know why. The only thing I could think of, but that's probably more fan-fiction than anything else, is that the statue, being named 'Statue of the Goddess', is the natural habitat for the Triforce, and it always returns to this statue if something happens to it. Now, this didn't happen because it was already at it's safe spot. Additional 'evidence' for this would be that it is said in Ocarina and A Link to the Past that the Triforce was hidden in the Sacred Realm after mortal people started waging wars over it (which must happen after Skyward Sword)...

But this is just random guessing...

And yes, ALttP doesn't really enlighten things. It's all so cryptic.



S.Peelman said:
fordy said:

As mentioned in Skyward Sword, very few mortals are able to handle the power of the complete Triforce. I'd say Ganondorf's intervention showed that he was only given the piece that resembled his desires the most.

I think I do recall the Triforce splitting in Wind Waker. It stayed put in Skyward Sword...Link to the Past is very controversial, mainly because the Triforce did a "reverse join" effect just to show the "The End" screen. That could be interpreted any kind of way. Adventure of Link didn't show much about the Triforce after Zelda awakened..

Yes, I just rewatched the Skyward Sword ending.

At least I think we can explain why Link still has to defeat Demise. Fi the Sword Spirit instructs Link to wish Demise (or in the present day; The Immortal) to be exterminated. I think he does this in a very literal way, Link wished the Immortal is dead. This happens, but what he should have wished for is to erase Demise from history!

The Triforce remains a strange thing, it indeed stays at the top of the statue, and doesn't split after Link's wish... I don't know why. The only thing I could think of, but that's probably more fan-fiction than anything else, is that the statue, being named 'Statue of the Goddess', is the natural habitat for the Triforce, and it always returns to this statue if something happens to it. Now, this didn't happen because it was already at it's safe spot. Additional 'evidence' for this would be that it is said in Ocarina and A Link to the Past that the Triforce was hidden in the Sacred Realm after mortal people started waging wars over it (which must happen after Skyward Sword)...

But this is just random guessing...


He should've asked for the Triforce of Power to be destroyed.



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F0X said:
S.Peelman said:
fordy said:

As mentioned in Skyward Sword, very few mortals are able to handle the power of the complete Triforce. I'd say Ganondorf's intervention showed that he was only given the piece that resembled his desires the most.

I think I do recall the Triforce splitting in Wind Waker. It stayed put in Skyward Sword...Link to the Past is very controversial, mainly because the Triforce did a "reverse join" effect just to show the "The End" screen. That could be interpreted any kind of way. Adventure of Link didn't show much about the Triforce after Zelda awakened..

Yes, I just rewatched the Skyward Sword ending.

At least I think we can explain why Link still has to defeat Demise. Fi the Sword Spirit instructs Link to wish Demise (or in the present day; The Immortal) to be exterminated. I think he does this in a very literal way, Link wished the Immortal is dead. This happens, but what he should have wished for is to erase Demise from history!

The Triforce remains a strange thing, it indeed stays at the top of the statue, and doesn't split after Link's wish... I don't know why. The only thing I could think of, but that's probably more fan-fiction than anything else, is that the statue, being named 'Statue of the Goddess', is the natural habitat for the Triforce, and it always returns to this statue if something happens to it. Now, this didn't happen because it was already at it's safe spot. Additional 'evidence' for this would be that it is said in Ocarina and A Link to the Past that the Triforce was hidden in the Sacred Realm after mortal people started waging wars over it (which must happen after Skyward Sword)...

But this is just random guessing...


He should've asked for the Triforce of Power to be destroyed.


Or wish for more wishes :P



F0X said:

Unfortunately, believeing that they exist in the same universe also means a giant gap or inconsistency in continuity. Remember the part in Ocarina of Time in which Link failed and Hyrule wasn't saved? I didn't. Because it didn't happen. The split timeline thing happened. That's perfectly acceptable. But since Link didn't fail in OoT's storyline, there's a plot inconsistency.

Unless, of course, the Zelda timeline is a multiverse. In that case, anything is possible. You could get a Game Over in Ocarina of Time and, oh, there's a branch universe created in which A Link to the Past takes place. If I could fix my problem with embedding videos, I have one that explains this idea rather well...

...nope. Okay, here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1TSpfPFNlE

Yes. That is true.

It's anyone's guess really, and all open to interpretation. This is also the reason I'm not sure about the concensus these days that it was meant in the Hyrule Historia that 'Link is Defeated' timeline literaly means 'Link got killed'. It creates too many complications.

Personally, I think it should be read as 'Link is 'nullified', or, 'circumvented', or 'invalidated', or 'obstructed', or 'removed''... Yes, I whipped up the online thesaurus for this .

Anyway, by translating it differently than literaly 'got killed', suddenly the timeline is created by Link simply not being there. And not being there can have all kinds of causes. All we truly know is that for some reason, there was nobody to protect Hyrule from Ganon on one branch of the timeline, bringing the downfall of Hyrule.

I think, the "Downfall Timeline" is caused by Link journeying to the future for the first time. In that timeline, he is removed leaving no-one to protect them from Ganon. When at the end of the game Zelda sends Link back in time, this creates a 'new past', where Link lives as a child. Now you have three timelines, one with no Link (leading to ALttP-LoZ), one with Child Link (leading to MM-TP) and one where an Adult Link appears to save the day (leading to WW).

Ironically though, the timeline without a Link after OoT is the one that gets everlasting peace first, as it is made so in Zelda 2.

Complicated story, and I know it's not waterproof as you could easily say the timeline Link got removed from is the same as the one he wakes up in 7 years later. But his is all I got, because I don't want to believe in the 'easy way out', so to say.

But like I said, it's anyone's guess, your explanation is as good as mine .