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Forums - Politics Discussion - Anti-Japan protests in China spread.

the2real4mafol on 17 September 2012

I can't believe they are both fighting over a tiny island! If they can't decide, they should be left unoccupied, it's not like people actually cared about them before now



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the2real4mafol on 17 September 2012
mrstickball said:
SamuelRSmith said:
mai said:

If you want some real comparisons, compare military spending not against GDP, but budget. Anything GDP-related just serves the aim to delude people, you need to know what exactly contributes to GDP, how exactly budget correlates to GDP, taxtion, laws... omg, my head already hurts. But if compared against budget it makes the picture not perfectly but clear enough, the US spend smth like 20-25% of budget on military, this's high. As high as Iran, Pakistan, China, Russia, India, but less than UAE (your ally). Not exactly the dove of peace, lol.


You have to consider that the United States political system works very differently to most other countries. Yes, defense as percentage of Federal budget is high... but it's one of the few areas that the Federal Government is supposed to focus on. When you include state Governments, which do most of the things that most central Governments do, the numbers are different. Also, local, etc.

To be fair, we have to spend 20-25% on the military since so many other countries that we're allied with won't bother to defend themselves. If the Europeans and Japanese would bother to get off their rear end and spend at a reasonable, NATO-required level, we wouldn't need to spend as much.

You do realise Japan was forced to give up it's army, when it surrendered to the USA in 1945. I believe it still stands now.

Although, you can't say much about Europe at all. America's military budget is still rediculously for what you are saying is defending other countries. America should just let these countries do what they want



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Kasz216 on 17 September 2012
mai said:

Kasz216 said:

A) So... you do?  I don't get what your saying here.

B) As your post below shows, even as a percentage of budget.  What the US spends isn't "10 times higher" then the next guy.

It's fine.  Espiecally considering that NATO is really just "The USA protects most of your shit so you don't have to spend money on defense for old outdated political reasons and so the US always has baked in allies whenever it wants to attack someone."

A) Who the fuck have said anynthing about conquest or smth? Not me for sure. The statement was very straighforward and clear, military presence in the region (be it South China Sea or whereever else) is politically important. Therefore Chinese are rightfully concerned about military presence around their coastline.

B) In raw numbers it 10 times bigger, in relative numbers it doesn't. What else exactly should be discussed here? It's simple. But again do not make it look like absolute numbers don't matter, it's nothing like your army is 10x bigger than second largest army spender. It's roughly a 1 mln, which is ok for country of this size. Should other 9x be somehow explained? Yes. So I did, see my points above.

A) The original post.  Which you were agreeing with.

B) Absolute numbers don't matter.  Not when talking about proper budgeting.  Having more money means you have more threats... more to protect and more intersets to protect.



mrstickball on 17 September 2012
the2real4mafol said:
mrstickball said:
SamuelRSmith said:
mai said:

If you want some real comparisons, compare military spending not against GDP, but budget. Anything GDP-related just serves the aim to delude people, you need to know what exactly contributes to GDP, how exactly budget correlates to GDP, taxtion, laws... omg, my head already hurts. But if compared against budget it makes the picture not perfectly but clear enough, the US spend smth like 20-25% of budget on military, this's high. As high as Iran, Pakistan, China, Russia, India, but less than UAE (your ally). Not exactly the dove of peace, lol.


You have to consider that the United States political system works very differently to most other countries. Yes, defense as percentage of Federal budget is high... but it's one of the few areas that the Federal Government is supposed to focus on. When you include state Governments, which do most of the things that most central Governments do, the numbers are different. Also, local, etc.

To be fair, we have to spend 20-25% on the military since so many other countries that we're allied with won't bother to defend themselves. If the Europeans and Japanese would bother to get off their rear end and spend at a reasonable, NATO-required level, we wouldn't need to spend as much.

You do realise Japan was forced to give up it's army, when it surrendered to the USA in 1945. I believe it still stands now.

Although, you can't say much about Europe at all. America's military budget is still rediculously for what you are saying is defending other countries. America should just let these countries do what they want


Then NATO should be disbanded. NATO membership requires 2% of GDP spent on military for the common defense of all nations. Most European countries are below that threshold. I am not against disbanding the organization, since many countries are essentially relying on the US for their defense if anything happens.

I understand the Japanese situation as well. Again, I'm all for them amending their constitution to allow for larger budgets. They certainly need it.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

the2real4mafol on 17 September 2012
mrstickball said:
the2real4mafol said:
mrstickball said:
SamuelRSmith said:
mai said:

If you want some real comparisons, compare military spending not against GDP, but budget. Anything GDP-related just serves the aim to delude people, you need to know what exactly contributes to GDP, how exactly budget correlates to GDP, taxtion, laws... omg, my head already hurts. But if compared against budget it makes the picture not perfectly but clear enough, the US spend smth like 20-25% of budget on military, this's high. As high as Iran, Pakistan, China, Russia, India, but less than UAE (your ally). Not exactly the dove of peace, lol.


You have to consider that the United States political system works very differently to most other countries. Yes, defense as percentage of Federal budget is high... but it's one of the few areas that the Federal Government is supposed to focus on. When you include state Governments, which do most of the things that most central Governments do, the numbers are different. Also, local, etc.

To be fair, we have to spend 20-25% on the military since so many other countries that we're allied with won't bother to defend themselves. If the Europeans and Japanese would bother to get off their rear end and spend at a reasonable, NATO-required level, we wouldn't need to spend as much.

You do realise Japan was forced to give up it's army, when it surrendered to the USA in 1945. I believe it still stands now.

Although, you can't say much about Europe at all. America's military budget is still rediculously for what you are saying is defending other countries. America should just let these countries do what they want


Then NATO should be disbanded. NATO membership requires 2% of GDP spent on military for the common defense of all nations. Most European countries are below that threshold. I am not against disbanding the organization, since many countries are essentially relying on the US for their defense if anything happens.

I understand the Japanese situation as well. Again, I'm all for them amending their constitution to allow for larger budgets. They certainly need it.

yeah there is need for a decent military by all nations but i feel some countries just spend far to much on the military currently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

as you can see few nations go above 2%



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Around the Network
gergroy on 17 September 2012
the2real4mafol said:
mrstickball said:
SamuelRSmith said:
mai said:

If you want some real comparisons, compare military spending not against GDP, but budget. Anything GDP-related just serves the aim to delude people, you need to know what exactly contributes to GDP, how exactly budget correlates to GDP, taxtion, laws... omg, my head already hurts. But if compared against budget it makes the picture not perfectly but clear enough, the US spend smth like 20-25% of budget on military, this's high. As high as Iran, Pakistan, China, Russia, India, but less than UAE (your ally). Not exactly the dove of peace, lol.


You have to consider that the United States political system works very differently to most other countries. Yes, defense as percentage of Federal budget is high... but it's one of the few areas that the Federal Government is supposed to focus on. When you include state Governments, which do most of the things that most central Governments do, the numbers are different. Also, local, etc.

To be fair, we have to spend 20-25% on the military since so many other countries that we're allied with won't bother to defend themselves. If the Europeans and Japanese would bother to get off their rear end and spend at a reasonable, NATO-required level, we wouldn't need to spend as much.

You do realise Japan was forced to give up it's army, when it surrendered to the USA in 1945. I believe it still stands now.

Although, you can't say much about Europe at all. America's military budget is still rediculously for what you are saying is defending other countries. America should just let these countries do what they want

japan wasn't forced to give up their army, their constitution just doesn't allow them to have an aggressive military.  They call their army the japanese self defense force and mostly just police their own territory.  They have the three seperate factions like most militaries; army, navy, and air.  Recently, they have worked with the international community in sending their troops on peacekeeping missions.  



Mr Khan on 17 September 2012
gergroy said:
the2real4mafol said:
mrstickball said:
SamuelRSmith said:
mai said:

If you want some real comparisons, compare military spending not against GDP, but budget. Anything GDP-related just serves the aim to delude people, you need to know what exactly contributes to GDP, how exactly budget correlates to GDP, taxtion, laws... omg, my head already hurts. But if compared against budget it makes the picture not perfectly but clear enough, the US spend smth like 20-25% of budget on military, this's high. As high as Iran, Pakistan, China, Russia, India, but less than UAE (your ally). Not exactly the dove of peace, lol.


You have to consider that the United States political system works very differently to most other countries. Yes, defense as percentage of Federal budget is high... but it's one of the few areas that the Federal Government is supposed to focus on. When you include state Governments, which do most of the things that most central Governments do, the numbers are different. Also, local, etc.

To be fair, we have to spend 20-25% on the military since so many other countries that we're allied with won't bother to defend themselves. If the Europeans and Japanese would bother to get off their rear end and spend at a reasonable, NATO-required level, we wouldn't need to spend as much.

You do realise Japan was forced to give up it's army, when it surrendered to the USA in 1945. I believe it still stands now.

Although, you can't say much about Europe at all. America's military budget is still rediculously for what you are saying is defending other countries. America should just let these countries do what they want

japan wasn't forced to give up their army, their constitution just doesn't allow them to have an aggressive military.  They call their army the japanese self defense force and mostly just police their own territory.  They have the three seperate factions like most militaries; army, navy, and air.  Recently, they have worked with the international community in sending their troops on peacekeeping missions.  

It's uncertain (e.g. up to legal debate) as to whether the Japanese Constitution prohibits their ability to wage war or their ability to have a war-ready military altogether.

The nice thing, however, is that the Japanese Supreme Court does not have the powers of other High Courts. Their role is advisory, and ultimately if the Diet/Bureaucracy want to completely ignore the SC, they will. So even if it were ruled clearly Unconstitutional, it might not go anywhere.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

arcane_chaos on 17 September 2012

how did an article about Japan and China turn into the United States cornering Russia and China/their defense spending? are people that paranoid of U.S. involvement?(or potential involvement) we have our own problems to worry about....



gergroy on 17 September 2012
arcane_chaos said:
how did an article about Japan and China turn into the United States cornering Russia and China/their defense spending? are people that paranoid of U.S. involvement?(or potential involvement) we have our own problems to worry about....


Yes they are.  Especially since if china and japan come to blows it would turn into world war 3...



haxxiy on 17 September 2012
arcane_chaos said:
how did an article about Japan and China turn into the United States cornering Russia and China/their defense spending? are people that paranoid of U.S. involvement?(or potential involvement) we have our own problems to worry about....

Yeah, like keeping that fancy petrodollar scheme working.