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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is "the rich getting richer" a problem?

CharmedontheWB on 30 April 2013

There is only a limited amount of money in the economy--in order for the rich to get richer it means they are taking money from someone else. Usually it is the middle class that suffers as wealth continues to trickle towards the affluent. During the 50's and 60's the ample rich had enough funds to do everything they wanted to do and the middle class was a strong subset of the American economy. In the 80's the shift began and the affluent became even more so. Economies have a tendency to collapse when the rich become too rich--Egpyt, Persia, Rome and Greece are a few examples.



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justinian on 30 April 2013
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:

Here's the thing. I haven't done EXTENSIVE research on it, but the little research I've done has lead me to a fairly big conclusion.

"The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding."

It's worth noting, that although to the average person the whole "Top 1%" or whatever you want to call it look pretty static it actually varies WIDELY."

I'd cite 2008 where the gini coefficient actually SHRUNK during the crisis.

The rich primarily get richer by "outrunning" not "stealing".

So it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Honestly, the Rich haven't even been getting much richer recently to be honest. While the Gini Coefficent has rised since the 90's. It's risen for income of households, but NOT income of individuals.

What's created the great increase in wealth lately has mostly been an increasing trend for money to marry money. Not a real compound interest effect. Once women get "full" representation in the workforce at proper levels, the Gini coefficient likely may stabilize.

 

The rich are indeed getting richer, and forcing others into poverty

Below research on the subject

http://www.thersa.org/events/video/vision-videos/ending-poverty


I see a video posted by a....

When i have specific hard fact numbers that specifically show that individual gini coefficent is down, and the gap increase between the rich and poor only exists when you account for households.

 

My guess is you don't really understand the difference between individual gini coefficent and household coefficent... and this is where the problem is resting.


No offence but did you watch the video, you should if your really interested in the subject, it has a ton of data that you could review

Ok.  I watched it... and I was 100% right in not watching it the first time.  Like I said in the previous paragraph.  The data he is using is not rich people getting richer.  It's Rich households getting richer and poorer households getting poorer.


Which is caused by demographic problems.  

 

A) In short...  the poor are more and more likely to be unmarried.   Which lengthens out the bottom of household income, because instead of one household where you have an income of 15K you could have one who has an income of 0, and another who has an income of 15K.

B) The Rich and Middle class haven't seen nearly the same drop in marriages, so the bottom naturally pushes the gini coefficent up, as the "middle point" Moved more towards the bottom.

C) Furthermore, the rise in two income families.   Now a days it's common for even two middle class or wealty families to work, when previously this was only the domain of poorer families. (That weren't single parent.)  Two Middle class incomes = one rich person for example.  Two rich people marrying?  That greatly increases the distribution of wealth among the rich, because not only do those two salaries now become one household income!  Someone who previously wasn't in the top 1% or top 50% get "bumped up" to top 1% or top 50% status.

D) Sorting by econmic prefrence is becoming more and more dominant.  Now rich guys are marrying rich women, They have the most in common and are far more likely to meet and talk to each other then poorer people.  Why didn't this happen before?  There weren't many rich women or even middle class earning women. 

 


I'll put the first one in some really easy to understand math to show you what i mean.

1)   Say you have 6 family incomes in your micronation.

30, 40, 50, / 50, 70, 80

The top 50% have 66% of societies wealth.

 

Now say the bottom two families split up... so your family income looks like this.

0 (living off welfare) 15 15 40 / 50 50 70 80

Thet top 50% now hold  92%! of all wealth.

Except.  The rich didn't actually get any richer... nobody got any richer.  The poor got poorer due to family differences.  Should we legislate for that?  Punnishing one guy because two people he doesn't even know go divorced?   How should we even legislate that?

Well thx for at least watching

I found the research in the video quite revealing, I guess we're not on the same page with this one

I also get the feeling your trying to insult me, which is cute ;)


Nice one. I agree with you. "The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding" is a flawed concept.

Trying to seek out the grey areas to support a point that is either true or false is irrelevant. The answer to the question of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is answered simply by a YES or NO. They either are or aren't. No need to write a thesis on it.

Taken from Business Week: A lot of other researches done by various bodies came to the same conclusion. These can be found online.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case you were hoping that America's three-decade-long trend toward extreme wealth inequality was starting to reverse itself, Pew has some bad news for you.

Nothing has changed.

The rich are still getting richer... and everyone else is still getting hosed.

Pew's latest data looked at how American households have fared since the depths of the recession.

The richest 7% of American households--8 million with more than $836,000 in net worth--did quite well from 2009 to 2011.

Their average net worth rose from $2.5 million to $3.2 million, a 28% jump.

The other 93% of American households, meanwhile, lost out.

Their average net worth dropped from a measly $140,000 to $134,000.



Kasz216 on 30 April 2013
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:

Here's the thing. I haven't done EXTENSIVE research on it, but the little research I've done has lead me to a fairly big conclusion.

"The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding."

It's worth noting, that although to the average person the whole "Top 1%" or whatever you want to call it look pretty static it actually varies WIDELY."

I'd cite 2008 where the gini coefficient actually SHRUNK during the crisis.

The rich primarily get richer by "outrunning" not "stealing".

So it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Honestly, the Rich haven't even been getting much richer recently to be honest. While the Gini Coefficent has rised since the 90's. It's risen for income of households, but NOT income of individuals.

What's created the great increase in wealth lately has mostly been an increasing trend for money to marry money. Not a real compound interest effect. Once women get "full" representation in the workforce at proper levels, the Gini coefficient likely may stabilize.

 

The rich are indeed getting richer, and forcing others into poverty

Below research on the subject

http://www.thersa.org/events/video/vision-videos/ending-poverty


I see a video posted by a....

When i have specific hard fact numbers that specifically show that individual gini coefficent is down, and the gap increase between the rich and poor only exists when you account for households.

 

My guess is you don't really understand the difference between individual gini coefficent and household coefficent... and this is where the problem is resting.


No offence but did you watch the video, you should if your really interested in the subject, it has a ton of data that you could review

Ok.  I watched it... and I was 100% right in not watching it the first time.  Like I said in the previous paragraph.  The data he is using is not rich people getting richer.  It's Rich households getting richer and poorer households getting poorer.


Which is caused by demographic problems.  

 

A) In short...  the poor are more and more likely to be unmarried.   Which lengthens out the bottom of household income, because instead of one household where you have an income of 15K you could have one who has an income of 0, and another who has an income of 15K.

B) The Rich and Middle class haven't seen nearly the same drop in marriages, so the bottom naturally pushes the gini coefficent up, as the "middle point" Moved more towards the bottom.

C) Furthermore, the rise in two income families.   Now a days it's common for even two middle class or wealty families to work, when previously this was only the domain of poorer families. (That weren't single parent.)  Two Middle class incomes = one rich person for example.  Two rich people marrying?  That greatly increases the distribution of wealth among the rich, because not only do those two salaries now become one household income!  Someone who previously wasn't in the top 1% or top 50% get "bumped up" to top 1% or top 50% status.

D) Sorting by econmic prefrence is becoming more and more dominant.  Now rich guys are marrying rich women, They have the most in common and are far more likely to meet and talk to each other then poorer people.  Why didn't this happen before?  There weren't many rich women or even middle class earning women. 

 


I'll put the first one in some really easy to understand math to show you what i mean.

1)   Say you have 6 family incomes in your micronation.

30, 40, 50, / 50, 70, 80

The top 50% have 66% of societies wealth.

 

Now say the bottom two families split up... so your family income looks like this.

0 (living off welfare) 15 15 40 / 50 50 70 80

Thet top 50% now hold  92%! of all wealth.

Except.  The rich didn't actually get any richer... nobody got any richer.  The poor got poorer due to family differences.  Should we legislate for that?  Punnishing one guy because two people he doesn't even know go divorced?   How should we even legislate that?

Well thx for at least watching

I found the research in the video quite revealing, I guess we're not on the same page with this one

I also get the feeling your trying to insult me, which is cute ;)

Not at all.  I was just using a simple breakdown of math, to show you why what he said was true... but also why you took it the wrong way.

extended end data sets on medians can be difficult to understand without a specific visual aid/example.



Kasz216 on 30 April 2013
justinian said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:

Here's the thing. I haven't done EXTENSIVE research on it, but the little research I've done has lead me to a fairly big conclusion.

"The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding."

It's worth noting, that although to the average person the whole "Top 1%" or whatever you want to call it look pretty static it actually varies WIDELY."

I'd cite 2008 where the gini coefficient actually SHRUNK during the crisis.

The rich primarily get richer by "outrunning" not "stealing".

So it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Honestly, the Rich haven't even been getting much richer recently to be honest. While the Gini Coefficent has rised since the 90's. It's risen for income of households, but NOT income of individuals.

What's created the great increase in wealth lately has mostly been an increasing trend for money to marry money. Not a real compound interest effect. Once women get "full" representation in the workforce at proper levels, the Gini coefficient likely may stabilize.

 

The rich are indeed getting richer, and forcing others into poverty

Below research on the subject

http://www.thersa.org/events/video/vision-videos/ending-poverty


I see a video posted by a....

When i have specific hard fact numbers that specifically show that individual gini coefficent is down, and the gap increase between the rich and poor only exists when you account for households.

 

My guess is you don't really understand the difference between individual gini coefficent and household coefficent... and this is where the problem is resting.


No offence but did you watch the video, you should if your really interested in the subject, it has a ton of data that you could review

Ok.  I watched it... and I was 100% right in not watching it the first time.  Like I said in the previous paragraph.  The data he is using is not rich people getting richer.  It's Rich households getting richer and poorer households getting poorer.


Which is caused by demographic problems.  

 

A) In short...  the poor are more and more likely to be unmarried.   Which lengthens out the bottom of household income, because instead of one household where you have an income of 15K you could have one who has an income of 0, and another who has an income of 15K.

B) The Rich and Middle class haven't seen nearly the same drop in marriages, so the bottom naturally pushes the gini coefficent up, as the "middle point" Moved more towards the bottom.

C) Furthermore, the rise in two income families.   Now a days it's common for even two middle class or wealty families to work, when previously this was only the domain of poorer families. (That weren't single parent.)  Two Middle class incomes = one rich person for example.  Two rich people marrying?  That greatly increases the distribution of wealth among the rich, because not only do those two salaries now become one household income!  Someone who previously wasn't in the top 1% or top 50% get "bumped up" to top 1% or top 50% status.

D) Sorting by econmic prefrence is becoming more and more dominant.  Now rich guys are marrying rich women, They have the most in common and are far more likely to meet and talk to each other then poorer people.  Why didn't this happen before?  There weren't many rich women or even middle class earning women. 

 


I'll put the first one in some really easy to understand math to show you what i mean.

1)   Say you have 6 family incomes in your micronation.

30, 40, 50, / 50, 70, 80

The top 50% have 66% of societies wealth.

 

Now say the bottom two families split up... so your family income looks like this.

0 (living off welfare) 15 15 40 / 50 50 70 80

Thet top 50% now hold  92%! of all wealth.

Except.  The rich didn't actually get any richer... nobody got any richer.  The poor got poorer due to family differences.  Should we legislate for that?  Punnishing one guy because two people he doesn't even know go divorced?   How should we even legislate that?

Well thx for at least watching

I found the research in the video quite revealing, I guess we're not on the same page with this one

I also get the feeling your trying to insult me, which is cute ;)


Nice one. I agree with you. "The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding" is a flawed concept.

Trying to seek out the grey areas to support a point that is either true or false is irrelevant. The answer to the question of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is answered simply by a YES or NO. They either are or aren't. No need to write a thesis on it.

Taken from Business Week: A lot of other researches done by various bodies came to the same conclusion. These can be found online.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case you were hoping that America's three-decade-long trend toward extreme wealth inequality was starting to reverse itself, Pew has some bad news for you.

Nothing has changed.

The rich are still getting richer... and everyone else is still getting hosed.

Pew's latest data looked at how American households have fared since the depths of the recession.

The richest 7% of American households--8 million with more than $836,000 in net worth--did quite well from 2009 to 2011.

Their average net worth rose from $2.5 million to $3.2 million, a 28% jump.

The other 93% of American households, meanwhile, lost out.

Their average net worth dropped from a measly $140,000 to $134,000.

The economy expanded between 2009 and 2011.  Outside that.. your talking households again.  Wealth for individuals?   Not so much.


Also... if you can't actually see the value for understanding why things happen... really what's the point of... anything?  You sure as hell shouldn't try and solve anything, because without the root cause... you literally have no clue what your doing.

 

Changes in income inequality are happening because of Demographic changes.  It's really just that simple.  That it's been happening for 3 decades isn't really a suprise... because those changes have been happening... for about 3... 3 and a half decades now. 



Rab on 30 April 2013
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:

Here's the thing. I haven't done EXTENSIVE research on it, but the little research I've done has lead me to a fairly big conclusion.

"The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding."

It's worth noting, that although to the average person the whole "Top 1%" or whatever you want to call it look pretty static it actually varies WIDELY."

I'd cite 2008 where the gini coefficient actually SHRUNK during the crisis.

The rich primarily get richer by "outrunning" not "stealing".

So it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Honestly, the Rich haven't even been getting much richer recently to be honest. While the Gini Coefficent has rised since the 90's. It's risen for income of households, but NOT income of individuals.

What's created the great increase in wealth lately has mostly been an increasing trend for money to marry money. Not a real compound interest effect. Once women get "full" representation in the workforce at proper levels, the Gini coefficient likely may stabilize.

 

The rich are indeed getting richer, and forcing others into poverty

Below research on the subject

http://www.thersa.org/events/video/vision-videos/ending-poverty


I see a video posted by a....

When i have specific hard fact numbers that specifically show that individual gini coefficent is down, and the gap increase between the rich and poor only exists when you account for households.

 

My guess is you don't really understand the difference between individual gini coefficent and household coefficent... and this is where the problem is resting.


No offence but did you watch the video, you should if your really interested in the subject, it has a ton of data that you could review

Ok.  I watched it... and I was 100% right in not watching it the first time.  Like I said in the previous paragraph.  The data he is using is not rich people getting richer.  It's Rich households getting richer and poorer households getting poorer.


Which is caused by demographic problems.  

 

A) In short...  the poor are more and more likely to be unmarried.   Which lengthens out the bottom of household income, because instead of one household where you have an income of 15K you could have one who has an income of 0, and another who has an income of 15K.

B) The Rich and Middle class haven't seen nearly the same drop in marriages, so the bottom naturally pushes the gini coefficent up, as the "middle point" Moved more towards the bottom.

C) Furthermore, the rise in two income families.   Now a days it's common for even two middle class or wealty families to work, when previously this was only the domain of poorer families. (That weren't single parent.)  Two Middle class incomes = one rich person for example.  Two rich people marrying?  That greatly increases the distribution of wealth among the rich, because not only do those two salaries now become one household income!  Someone who previously wasn't in the top 1% or top 50% get "bumped up" to top 1% or top 50% status.

D) Sorting by econmic prefrence is becoming more and more dominant.  Now rich guys are marrying rich women, They have the most in common and are far more likely to meet and talk to each other then poorer people.  Why didn't this happen before?  There weren't many rich women or even middle class earning women. 

 


I'll put the first one in some really easy to understand math to show you what i mean.

1)   Say you have 6 family incomes in your micronation.

30, 40, 50, / 50, 70, 80

The top 50% have 66% of societies wealth.

 

Now say the bottom two families split up... so your family income looks like this.

0 (living off welfare) 15 15 40 / 50 50 70 80

Thet top 50% now hold  92%! of all wealth.

Except.  The rich didn't actually get any richer... nobody got any richer.  The poor got poorer due to family differences.  Should we legislate for that?  Punnishing one guy because two people he doesn't even know go divorced?   How should we even legislate that?

Well thx for at least watching

I found the research in the video quite revealing, I guess we're not on the same page with this one

I also get the feeling your trying to insult me, which is cute ;)

Not at all.  I was just using a simple breakdown of math, to show you why what he said was true... but also why you took it the wrong way.

extended end data sets on medians can be difficult to understand without a specific visual aid/example.

No worries

BTW when I talk about rich and poor, it's generally the global view/economy, not so much on one specific counries economy (the video mostly does this as well)

 

Basically the idea is the richer you are the more rules/laws you can influence to give you advantage, this is a progressive and constant change to rules/laws that progressively advantage the rich, making them wealthier faster than others, the US lobby system is one example of the rich having disproportional access to law makers, it does have an effect over time



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Michael-5 on 30 April 2013

like chapset says "Not if you're rich."

No, seriously, coming from a rich family I think this is a problem. It's not a problem that some people who either worked hard, or had a great buisness plan/idea/invention that got them loaded. The problem is that most rich people give their money to their children when they die, children who most likely have been spoiled, or who haven't earned that income. These people often become really smug, and give off that "I'm better then you" image, but in reality if you own a Bentley at 25, you most likely don't desrve it.

Wealth without Work - is one of the 7 deadly sins according to Gandhi

This is really sad, this is why I'm always super polite to people who work at McDonalds and other chains, and really try to supress any anger I have if there is a long wait. These people work for minimum wage, only to be treated like shit, and you know if Management hired more people, there really wouldn't be a long line.

-----

However, at the oposite end of the spectrum, many lazy poor people hate the rich because they often think they are better then them regardless. As much as I hate smug rich people, I really hate smug lazy people who really need to look in the mirror and see that they aren't so great either.

Either way, wealth without work is a real problem, people shouldn't be allowed to leave children with millions of dollars unless the child is the new company CEO or something, and CEO's shouldn't be allowed to make more then 100x what their average earning employee makes (This is what CEO's made a century ago).



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Kasz216 on 01 May 2013
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:
Rab said:
Kasz216 said:

Here's the thing. I haven't done EXTENSIVE research on it, but the little research I've done has lead me to a fairly big conclusion.

"The rich only get richer when the economy is expanding."

It's worth noting, that although to the average person the whole "Top 1%" or whatever you want to call it look pretty static it actually varies WIDELY."

I'd cite 2008 where the gini coefficient actually SHRUNK during the crisis.

The rich primarily get richer by "outrunning" not "stealing".

So it doesn't really seem like an issue.

Honestly, the Rich haven't even been getting much richer recently to be honest. While the Gini Coefficent has rised since the 90's. It's risen for income of households, but NOT income of individuals.

What's created the great increase in wealth lately has mostly been an increasing trend for money to marry money. Not a real compound interest effect. Once women get "full" representation in the workforce at proper levels, the Gini coefficient likely may stabilize.

 

The rich are indeed getting richer, and forcing others into poverty

Below research on the subject

http://www.thersa.org/events/video/vision-videos/ending-poverty


I see a video posted by a....

When i have specific hard fact numbers that specifically show that individual gini coefficent is down, and the gap increase between the rich and poor only exists when you account for households.

 

My guess is you don't really understand the difference between individual gini coefficent and household coefficent... and this is where the problem is resting.


No offence but did you watch the video, you should if your really interested in the subject, it has a ton of data that you could review

Ok.  I watched it... and I was 100% right in not watching it the first time.  Like I said in the previous paragraph.  The data he is using is not rich people getting richer.  It's Rich households getting richer and poorer households getting poorer.


Which is caused by demographic problems.  

 

A) In short...  the poor are more and more likely to be unmarried.   Which lengthens out the bottom of household income, because instead of one household where you have an income of 15K you could have one who has an income of 0, and another who has an income of 15K.

B) The Rich and Middle class haven't seen nearly the same drop in marriages, so the bottom naturally pushes the gini coefficent up, as the "middle point" Moved more towards the bottom.

C) Furthermore, the rise in two income families.   Now a days it's common for even two middle class or wealty families to work, when previously this was only the domain of poorer families. (That weren't single parent.)  Two Middle class incomes = one rich person for example.  Two rich people marrying?  That greatly increases the distribution of wealth among the rich, because not only do those two salaries now become one household income!  Someone who previously wasn't in the top 1% or top 50% get "bumped up" to top 1% or top 50% status.

D) Sorting by econmic prefrence is becoming more and more dominant.  Now rich guys are marrying rich women, They have the most in common and are far more likely to meet and talk to each other then poorer people.  Why didn't this happen before?  There weren't many rich women or even middle class earning women. 

 


I'll put the first one in some really easy to understand math to show you what i mean.

1)   Say you have 6 family incomes in your micronation.

30, 40, 50, / 50, 70, 80

The top 50% have 66% of societies wealth.

 

Now say the bottom two families split up... so your family income looks like this.

0 (living off welfare) 15 15 40 / 50 50 70 80

Thet top 50% now hold  92%! of all wealth.

Except.  The rich didn't actually get any richer... nobody got any richer.  The poor got poorer due to family differences.  Should we legislate for that?  Punnishing one guy because two people he doesn't even know go divorced?   How should we even legislate that?

Well thx for at least watching

I found the research in the video quite revealing, I guess we're not on the same page with this one

I also get the feeling your trying to insult me, which is cute ;)

Not at all.  I was just using a simple breakdown of math, to show you why what he said was true... but also why you took it the wrong way.

extended end data sets on medians can be difficult to understand without a specific visual aid/example.

No worries

BTW when I talk about rich and poor, it's generally the global view/economy, not so much on one specific counries economy (the video mostly does this as well)

 

Basically the idea is the richer you are the more rules/laws you can influence to give you advantage, this is a progressive and constant change to rules/laws that progressively advantage the rich, making them wealthier faster than others, the US lobby system is one example of the rich having disproportional access to law makers, it does have an effect over time


ooooh.... on a global country scale i'd agree yeah.  Except with the caveat that i think the powerful countries are rigging the game so much in their favor they are allowing their fundamentals to go instad of it.

So eventually, things will radically shift/reach a point where all the influence in the world won't buy anything.