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Forums - General Discussion - Occupy Wall Street Protests not working? What do you think?

 

How much of an impact is OWS having?

Can't hear them over the sound of my Ferrari 60 24.10%
 
Just a news story, no visible results 82 32.93%
 
Helping change minds, it's a start 68 27.31%
 
Change is on the horizon, just you wait 27 10.84%
 
I feel the impact already 6 2.41%
 
Can't hear them over the... 6 2.41%
 
Total:249
fordy said:

Tony_Stark said:

Because the US is a republic, not a democracy, mob rule does not apply here

Until the politicians realise that, unless they appeal to a (still growing) mob, their chances of staying in congress may be in jeopardy.

 

Tony_Stark said:

Add to that the fact that there is no coherant message, crime, racism, hate, and hipocracy runs rampant in this small group of eco-terrorist wannabe's.

Mmhm somebody's been listening to the wrong news sources again. do you know what they had the audacity to do? When Mayor bloomberg went to close Zuccotti Park in order to "clean the park", the protestors cleaned it for them. How DARE THEY! Oh and the Yom Kippur sessions they had? Oh, how racist and insensitive of them, appealing to all of those people!!

Tony_Stark said:

 It's not surprising the public for the most part, has rejected them.

A United Technologies/National Journal Congressional poll found that 59 percent of Americans agree with the movement while 31 percent disagree.

An October Quinnipiac University poll of New York City voters found that 67 percent of New Yorkers approved of the movement with 23 percent disapproving.

A NY1-Marist Poll released November 1st showed 44 percent of New York voters supported the Occupy Wall Street movement, while only 21 percent supported the Tea Party.

No, the public supports the movement, even moreso than the Tea Party.

Tony_Stark said:

 

Not Lately they don't.  They support the Tea party more.  Quick tip.  Political protest movements ALWAYS have HUGE popularity when they start off, which then drops off as people learn more about the protesters. 

"The Occupy Wall Street movement is not wearing well with voters across the country. Only 33% now say that they are supportive of its goals, compared to 45% who say they oppose them. That represents an 11 point shift in the wrong direction for the movement's support compared to a month ago when 35% of voters said they supported it and 36% were opposed. Most notably independents have gone from supporting Occupy Wall Street's goals 39/34, to opposing them 34/42.

Voters don't care for the Tea Party either, with 42% saying they support its goals to 45% opposed.  But asked whether they have a higher opinion of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street movement the Tea Party wins out 43-37,"

 

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html



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http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2011/11/16/n_sachs_occupy_history.cnnmoney/?iid=HP_LN



Tony_Stark said:

No, the mob is not growing, and the day politicians succumb to mob rule, is the day the US dies. 

The US MAY be a Republic, but the leaders are still elected democratically. Unless you want to argue that a large group of mad people CAN'T swing an election, I have nothing else to say on the matter.

 

XD I seriously hope, for your sake, that you are not this ignorant, one isolated incident, which is in stark contrast to previouse instances with the very same group of protestors, does not mean they are not criminals. I see your "yom kippor session, and raise you literally hundreds of racist comments made by variouse protestors. Once again, cherry picking at this stage in the game, is silly, anybody with half a brain knows better. 

Literally hundreds huh? Tell me, is there anything around to show this, or are you just pulling figures out of your ass? Let me guess, you attended it and heard it all, as opposed to sitting in your house with a prejudice mindset towards this.

 

Abortion is murder, they are against murder because, well, it happens to be a crime that the government is supposed to enforce, sorry buddy, but once again, you are wrong. 

Once again you are ignorant. To introduce a new law against something requires more work to enforce it. Are you for recruiting those extra police officers and such, on an ideology for SMALLER government?

Even the Tea Party respresentatives are scammer. How about Michelle Bachmann? She struts around demanding smaller government, yet she receives government handouts in the form of farm subsidies. And who brings guns to a supposed "peaceful" protest? Someone really insecure about their arguments perhaps, in need of a second solution....

Wanting a religious state over a secular state? Surely that's got to involve extra personnel to enforce. Need those police breaking down doors to make sure good Chrisians aren't out there eating shellfish. Oh wait....

But we can all agree that we need to cut back on the major forms of spending right? What about military? No? Oh, that's right! Conservatives WANT the military in order to satisfy their defense contractor base. And you hve the audacity to call the OWS movement a hypocrisy?!?!

No, that's not what's wrong with it, the government is the problems, regulations have allowed crony capitalism to thrive, this is yet another example of big government fusking up, and these WSPs are idiots protesting against the wrong people. 

Oh, I see. It's the government's fault now. For some strange reason, I thought it was weird that the government would ever put a gun to the bank's heads and say "I'm forcing you to partake in subprime lending, to risk the money of savings accounts rather than your own money." Don't you see how much of a retarded argument it is that you have stated there? And you think the solution is LESS regulation? LESS people watching that they don't pull this shit again? Are you seriously going to defend that?


Wrong again, I am not part of the wealthy elite, I've done my homework on this BS, and let me tell you, it only ends one way, socialism, every time. My "insane BS" is actually fact, do some research yourself instead of following these idiots off the cliff like a lemming. 

Uh oh! The Socialist boogeyman is right around the corner ready to strike! Is that your homework? That everything that goes to the left is socialism? Not very good quality homework, is it? On the other hand, you're the one that seems to be squawking the same rhetoric spouted from any fatass conservative behind a radio mic, or comedy station disguised as a news station.

 





Kasz216 said:
fordy said:

Tony_Stark said:

Because the US is a republic, not a democracy, mob rule does not apply here

Until the politicians realise that, unless they appeal to a (still growing) mob, their chances of staying in congress may be in jeopardy.

 

Tony_Stark said:

Add to that the fact that there is no coherant message, crime, racism, hate, and hipocracy runs rampant in this small group of eco-terrorist wannabe's.

Mmhm somebody's been listening to the wrong news sources again. do you know what they had the audacity to do? When Mayor bloomberg went to close Zuccotti Park in order to "clean the park", the protestors cleaned it for them. How DARE THEY! Oh and the Yom Kippur sessions they had? Oh, how racist and insensitive of them, appealing to all of those people!!

Tony_Stark said:

 It's not surprising the public for the most part, has rejected them.

A United Technologies/National Journal Congressional poll found that 59 percent of Americans agree with the movement while 31 percent disagree.

An October Quinnipiac University poll of New York City voters found that 67 percent of New Yorkers approved of the movement with 23 percent disapproving.

A NY1-Marist Poll released November 1st showed 44 percent of New York voters supported the Occupy Wall Street movement, while only 21 percent supported the Tea Party.

No, the public supports the movement, even moreso than the Tea Party.

Tony_Stark said:

 

Not Lately they don't.  They support the Tea party more.  Quick tip.  Political protest movements ALWAYS have HUGE popularity when they start off, which then drops off as people learn more about the protesters. 

"The Occupy Wall Street movement is not wearing well with voters across the country. Only 33% now say that they are supportive of its goals, compared to 45% who say they oppose them. That represents an 11 point shift in the wrong direction for the movement's support compared to a month ago when 35% of voters said they supported it and 36% were opposed. Most notably independents have gone from supporting Occupy Wall Street's goals 39/34, to opposing them 34/42.

Voters don't care for the Tea Party either, with 42% saying they support its goals to 45% opposed.  But asked whether they have a higher opinion of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street movement the Tea Party wins out 43-37,"

 

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html


So at first, you say nobody knows what the occupy movement stands for, now you say they're against it. You do realise that you destroyed your own argument there as this being a legitimate and accurate poll, don't you? How can someone support or oppose something that apparently nobody knows anything about?



fordy said:


I'd appreciate if you don't bring speculative figures into the conversation. If you don't know the figure, then don't assume that's the case.

On the flip side, I could say the ravenous Tea Party movement had no clear goal because it consisted of conservatives, religious nuts, pro lifers, gun fanatics, no-government anarchists and people with racial intolerance.

Actually you couldn't make those claims ... The Tea-Party's message was fairly clear because it was an organized protest with well defined points and clear leadership; and it communicated its points at rallies and to the media through intelligent, well informed and (for the most part) well respected speakers.

The Tea-Party didn't start out with this structure, initially it was made up of dozens of small groups holding protests against "Big Government" and the death of the constitution but as it grew structure was added to make their message more clear; and (to a certain extent) individuals and groups co-opted the movement for their own gains.

The same cannot be said about Occupy Wall Street and, has been demonstrated countless times by the media and bloggers, if you go down to one of these protests and ask what it is about you’re far more likely to run into someone from the Tinfoil Hat Brigade than anyone who has a well-defined message; and you can’t even look for an official statement from the group because they want their group to have no leadership, and the movement makes decisions through consensus (which is the equivalent of not making any meaningful decisions).



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fordy said:


So at first, you say nobody knows what the occupy movement stands for, now you say they're against it. You do realise that you destroyed your own argument there as this being a legitimate and accurate poll, don't you? How can someone support or oppose something that apparently nobody knows anything about?


Actually, he really didn't ...

Public opinion polling is not based on an well-informed understanding of something, it is based on how people respond to a series of quesions about them.

With no clear message from OWS, people initially assumed that it was a movement to demonstrate rate against investment banks which prosper due to their close ties to governmen; and the vast majority of people are against this kind of behaviour, so they supported the movement. As the movement grew, spread to other cities, and misbehaviour became rampant while no message emerged people became less supportive of the movement.

While the phrasing of the poll question is poor, it is clear that the intention of the pollster was to ensure that people were reporting their support (or lack thereof) for the "movement" and not the illegal acts and misbehaviour of the protestors.



HappySqurriel said:
Final-Fan said:
HappySqurriel said:

... people who seem to be playing parliament similar to the kids in Lord of the Flies ...

evidence plz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qaVvzTyMcls#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R2yYiULZ0hA
If that isn't playing parliament I don't know what is ...

The comparison seems pretty tenuous based on what I can glean from the internet about the relevant part of the book (I read it but don't remember that much).  Honestly unless I seriously misunderstand the summary I read your analogy seems more insulting than informative.  The video shows a real process to help a large group identify who is talking and what sort of input they are trying to give.  (The repetition is, I suppose, in lieu of loudspeakers etc., to help project the speakers' words.) 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:

Please Kasz, your post assumes the people will be just as alert to politicians' actions as the corporations.  "All the corporate money in the world" won't make politicans stand by BP when they caused the disastrous Gulf of Mexico oil spill, but if it's not making headlines ...

Owning politicians means corporations can do serious damage to our country (for short-term or special interest gain) and all they have to do is keep a majority of people in the dark about it.  Or shit, if they get stupid politicians (not rare), they can just buy off the next one when the first one gets run out on a rail.  (I'm sure you know the big companies spend on both sides.) 

Just as alert?  No.   Still alert enough though to detect anything big... which generally is the stuff that's "Against the people".

Just about anything particularly important that particularly hurts the majority of people is untouchable.  All the little subsidies and things they do I don't think they see as "against the people" nor do most people.  It's justified to most people and most polticians because in general they get won over by the arguement.

For example, you are one of the people who think the 2008 crisis was caused by the repeal of glass steagal right?  If I remember correctly that was done during the "Banking Modernization Act" which received massive bipartisian support and had basically nobody voting against it, and in general people thinking it'd be good for the economy... and banks likely thought that as well.

Everytime there has been an attempt to get lobbying money out of Washington, at best it's failed, and  othertimes it's often made things worse.

Why?  Because you are essentially asking the bribed to stop themselves from being bribed.

The only way to stop bribery from the highest levels of government is to take away their power over the small things that can be influnced. 

A lot of little things get by because they aren't big enough to affect enough people, even when the people who do care mostly think it's bad. 

The banks probably thought it would be good for them, and IMO there's a problem there in terms of taking the long view. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd hope that many politicians would prefer to see less lobbying money in politics ... they just don't want to be the one to get less of it than the other guy.  Therefore they wouldn't have a problem with trying to evenhandedly close the floodgates.  Of course, that's a lot easier said than done, and real reform in this area might earn the authors a certain amount of backlash from those groups.  But that's how the bribed could stop themselves from being bribed ... because the bribery is part of a competition with other bribed people.  If they cooperated, I'd think they could fix the problem without disadvantaging theselves. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Even if you solve it now, it will happen again eventually.
Money and power corrupts.
Everyone has a price.
I personally am await for the robot overlords.



Of course USA is a Democracy.

USA is a Democratic Republic. Accept it.

It is a contemporaneous concept. A democracy is not necessarely the same as it was in classic greece.

And the Republic part is also not a perfect replica of Roman Republic. I may be wrong but there are probably influences of Enlightenment (the same ideals that culminated in French Revolution) on Constitution and posterior laws.