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Forums - Politics Discussion - Poll: Israel or Palestine?

 

Who do you support in the conflict and why?

Israel 124 34.35%
 
Palestine 235 65.10%
 
Total:359
Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/08/world/meast/israel-graves-vandalized/?hpt=wo_c2

"The Israeli government was not making any effort to stop these racist attacks against Palestinians," Sarsour said. "Rather, it provides extremists protection."

Kinda fits in to my mentions above regarding the terrorist faction simply labelled "settlers".


If you never see this news you can't be looking that hard, it was all over the place.   I remember thinking "Price tag, that just is going to reinforce stereotypes." 

Now what you never hear about are rockets being shot into Israel... because it occurs more often then Wensdays do.

of course, Saying that it provides the extremists protection is false.

the Jewish government doesn't go after them but it doesn't protect extremist settlers.


Though it does protect some settlers, within the land expected to go to them in the negotiations.


Those that are building and those that are particularly violent are conflated together for political reasons.


But wait, isnt there a reason behind why they throw rockets?? Or is it just because they want to have some fun? They are being pushed out and more and more land is being taken from the palestinians everyday...



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I am pro Israel.

I have also read this entire thread and have seen nothing submitted by Pro Palestinians to change my views. Hell, if anything the amount of information provided by the Israeli side has pushed me further that direction.

Do I think a 2 State Solution is the right solution? Yes I do.  Do I think the UN was the right place to bring this idea? Not at all. 



I support Israel, Why? I think Palestine unfairly is attacking Israel for no real reason.



Kasz216 said:

So in otherwords... if the US wanted to kick out all of the illegal aliens in the United States, and for that matter all the hispanic people who have migrated their in the last couple decades.... you're all for that then?

 

Also, no... only 23% of Jews who live in israel came from Europe.  70% were born in Israel.

The percentage of Palestinians who were born within Jewish lands... much less.

Aside from which, if your going to argue historical hertiage as right... to claim that historical heritage has a "generic starting point" is just.... silly.

I mean, what makes a newer historical claim more valid then an older one.  (Though note actually, the Jews now have both the Newest and Oldest claims now.)

Are you actually calling immigrants (even the illegal ones) 'invaders'? Because the Jews who came to the Palestinian terriotries sure didn't want to 'immigrate' there, but wanted to create a state, and throw out all the natives (i.e. arabs), in their Zionist psychosis.

And no, the Jews were a minority in the Palestinian territories 'till a century ago. The vast majority of them came from Europe. Heck, even their language was invented in Europe. They cannot argue continuity (very important in these matters, because if a population leaves a certain land, they no longer have any right to it), nor being a surpressed majority (as the people from Eastern Europe argued against Austria-Hungary when they wanted to get independence). They have no historical right to that territory.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:
badgenome said:

sapphi_snake said:

I must've misunderstood your post.

And regardign C, hey, they left, it's no longer theirs anymore. The Jews who currently live in Israel came from Europe a couple of decades ago. Palestinians have been living there for centuries. They're more natives to the land than the Jews are. Sucks for the Jews that they're trying to perform ethnic cleansing in the 21st century.

 

They didn't "leave", they were driven out. But never entirely, as there has always remained a Jewish minority, and since the ruling Ottomans allowed more Jews to return to Palestine and purchase land there over the centuries, the idea that their presence is somehow illegitimate seems dodgy at best and repugnant at worst.

Most of the Jews living in Israel came from Europe a couple of decades ago. Heck, even the language they speak was invented in Europe less than a century ago. And how does this excuse the ethnic cleansing?

Typically when there is an ethnic cleansing, there is less of that particular ethnicity afterwards. Sort of like what happened to the Jews or the Armenians. Since there are more Palestinian Arabs than ever before and Israel has over 1 million Arab citizens, this has to be the most cackhanded ethnic cleansing in the history of the world.

The Jews banished a lot of the Arabs who lived in the lands they invaded. There should actually be more Arabs than Jews living in Israel.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Kasz216 said:
ArnoldRimmer said:
Kasz216 said:

Interesting to note though.... when asked, more Arabs in Eastern Jerusalem say they would rather be a part of the Israeli state then the Palestinian state.

Something like 40% of people polled actually say that if the two state solution happened and Palestine gained control of East Jersualem they would leave their homes to stay on the Israeli side.

If back in the 1940s you asked 100 jews if they would rather live in the Warsaw Ghetto or Nazi Germany, they'd probably still choose Nazi Germany. But what does that prove?

Except I was talking about a fully liberated Palestine.

Could it be that maybe they're afraid of living in an Islamic state? A sham democracy where they're treated as second class citizens is better than livign in an Islamic state (granted, not by that much).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

So in otherwords... if the US wanted to kick out all of the illegal aliens in the United States, and for that matter all the hispanic people who have migrated their in the last couple decades.... you're all for that then?

 

Also, no... only 23% of Jews who live in israel came from Europe.  70% were born in Israel.

The percentage of Palestinians who were born within Jewish lands... much less.

Aside from which, if your going to argue historical hertiage as right... to claim that historical heritage has a "generic starting point" is just.... silly.

I mean, what makes a newer historical claim more valid then an older one.  (Though note actually, the Jews now have both the Newest and Oldest claims now.)

Are you actually calling immigrants (even the illegal ones) 'invaders'? Because the Jews who came to the Palestinian terriotries sure didn't want to 'immigrate' there, but wanted to create a state, and throw out all the natives (i.e. arabs), in their Zionist psychosis.

And no, the Jews were a minority in the Palestinian territories 'till a century ago. The vast majority of them came from Europe. Heck, even their language was invented in Europe. They cannot argue continuity (very important in these matters, because if a population leaves a certain land, they no longer have any right to it), nor being a surpressed majority (as the people from Eastern Europe argued against Austria-Hungary when they wanted to get independence). They have no historical right to that territory.

Except the vast majority aren't from Europe.

The vast majority of Jews living in Israel now were born there.

Their Parents and Grandparents may have moved there.... but 70% of the Jews who live in Israel (who are 70% of the population) were born there.

So 70% of the Jews do have a historical right to be there through birth.  

 

What percentage of Palestinians in Hamas and Gaza do you think were born within Israel's borders?  Keep in mind these people have been out of there for like... 40+ years.

By your own words "very important in these matters, because if a population leaves a certain land, they no longer have any right to it"


The Palestinians have left en masse from the borders that make up the state of Israel.  So according to your arguement, they have no right to it.

The few Palestinians that stay (Something a little less then 20% of the population once you count out other arabs) are not a majority, nor ar they supressed having all the equal rights of a regular Israeli citizen.


Your own arguement is defeated by your own parameters.   (Though historical claim is dumb no matter who argues it.)



Palestine. If a bunch of Jews turned up on my doorstep telling me that God promised them my house then I would say this:

1. Prove there is a God
2. Prove that that God is your God
3. Prove that your God did in fact promise you this land

After that I would gladly move out to make way, but until that happens I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to f*** right off.

And I don't see how this political invasion of another country is justified, especially when that land is religiously important to the Palestinians as well.



sapphi_snake said:

The Jews banished a lot of the Arabs who lived in the lands they invaded. There should actually be more Arabs than Jews living in Israel.

And there were, right up until the Jews had enough of the Arabs attacking them and beat the shit out of them. The idea that the Jews should have ever just laid down their arms over the last 60+ years and trusted the Arabs not to try and slaughter them this time is utterly risible, and it's based on nothing more than adolescent left-wing ideas about how the world works and/or the desire to see those fucking kikes finally get what they deserve.

Since you are a known lefty and keep insisting that most Jews have only been there for about 20 years now, I'll generously give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your motivation is ignorance rather than malice.



badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

The Jews banished a lot of the Arabs who lived in the lands they invaded. There should actually be more Arabs than Jews living in Israel.

And there were, right up until the Jews had enough of the Arabs attacking them and beat the shit out of them. The idea that the Jews should have ever just laid down their arms over the last 60+ years and trusted the Arabs not to try and slaughter them this time is utterly risible, and it's based on nothing more than adolescent left-wing ideas about how the world works and/or the desire to see those fucking kikes finally get what they deserve.

After World War 2 the Zionists went to Palestine and killed the Arabs. The Arab nations then retaliated. It was provoked and the Zionists fault.