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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Bioware really needs to play more action games before making Mass Effect 3

disolitude on 01 February 2010
heruamon said:
Sorry, but I'll pass on your suggestions, and hope ME3 is exactly in the mold of ME1 nad ME2.

You're either missing my point or are being stubborn because there is no reason why they shouldn't make action parts of the game better. If you enjoy games like Halo and Gears of war, there is no reason why some of those gunplay elements can't be inserted in to Mass Effect 3. It wouldn't change the "rpg-ish" ness of the game any more or less if they took the action parts of the game, and cranked it up to 11.

@Munkeh111

I pretty much agree with everythign in your post...otehr than hating sequels part. :)




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--OkeyDokey-- on 01 February 2010

Well, of course there's nothing like Uncharted 2 where the building is collapsing while you're inside it but remember, it's still an RPG underneath. What's possible in a linear action game may not be possible in a massive RPG world. Yet.



heruamon on 01 February 2010
disolitude said:
heruamon said:
Sorry, but I'll pass on your suggestions, and hope ME3 is exactly in the mold of ME1 nad ME2.

You're either missing my point or are being stubborn because there is no reason why they shouldn't make action parts of the game better. If you enjoy games like Halo and Gears of war, there is no reason why some of those gunplay elements can't be inserted in to Mass Effect 3. It wouldn't change the "rpg-ish" ness of the game any more or less if they took the action parts of the game, and cranked it up to 11.

@Munkeh111

I pretty much agree with everythign in your post...otehr than hating sequels part. :)

Aaah...go it.  The FPS action in this game is better than Fallout 3, and it's much better than the ME.  My major grip with the game is the lack of loot, and ways to get more credits.



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

disolitude on 01 February 2010
--OkeyDokey-- said:
Well, of course there's nothing like Uncharted 2 where the building is collapsing while you're inside it but remember, it's still an RPG underneath. What's possible in a linear action game may not be possible in a massive RPG world. Yet.


Did you try mass effect 2 yet? Cause the action bits are just like Uncharted and Gears of war. Atleast thats what they are striving for. There is little to none RPG elements in the action. No XP for kills, no leveling up, no loot... all that stuff is done at the ship or through dialoge and choices.

They got the RPG part perfect...but they could still tighten the action screw a bit...if they are trully trying to do an action RPG hybrid.



rocketpig on 02 February 2010
disolitude said:
--OkeyDokey-- said:
Well, of course there's nothing like Uncharted 2 where the building is collapsing while you're inside it but remember, it's still an RPG underneath. What's possible in a linear action game may not be possible in a massive RPG world. Yet.


Did you try mass effect 2 yet? Cause the action bits are just like Uncharted and Gears of war. Atleast thats what they are striving for. There is little to none RPG elements in the action. No XP for kills, no leveling up, no loot... all that stuff is done at the ship or through dialoge and choices.

They got the RPG part perfect...but they could still tighten the action screw a bit...if they are trully trying to do an action RPG hybrid.

While I agree that the action could use a little tweaking, let's be honest about this and admit that they did a pretty damned good job as it is. You really need to play the last 3-4 hours of the game and see how BioWare was holding a bit back just to make the ending more intense.

As for the bolded, why do we consider those elements "RPG"? Think about it for a moment. BioWare streamlined almost every typical "RPG" element out of the game in favor of letting the player actually "role play" through action. It's mind-blowing how much they threw convention out the window in favor of letting the player direct their own movie.




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disolitude on 02 February 2010
rocketpig said:
disolitude said:
--OkeyDokey-- said:
Well, of course there's nothing like Uncharted 2 where the building is collapsing while you're inside it but remember, it's still an RPG underneath. What's possible in a linear action game may not be possible in a massive RPG world. Yet.


Did you try mass effect 2 yet? Cause the action bits are just like Uncharted and Gears of war. Atleast thats what they are striving for. There is little to none RPG elements in the action. No XP for kills, no leveling up, no loot... all that stuff is done at the ship or through dialoge and choices.

They got the RPG part perfect...but they could still tighten the action screw a bit...if they are trully trying to do an action RPG hybrid.

While I agree that the action could use a little tweaking, let's be honest about this and admit that they did a pretty damned good job as it is. You really need to play the last 3-4 hours of the game and see how BioWare was holding a bit back just to make the ending more intense.

As for the bolded, why do we consider those elements "RPG"? Think about it for a moment. BioWare streamlined almost every typical "RPG" element out of the game in favor of letting the player actually "role play" through action. It's mind-blowing how much they threw convention out the window in favor of letting the player direct their own movie.


I think they did an amazing job with the game and yes, I will play the last few hours by the end of the week at this pace.

I was merely hinting that some action gameplay oportunities were lost in the first half of the game. Otherwise I agree that there really isn't a studio out there that could deliver a package like this and make it more polished. Its actually fun to imagine how different studios would make this game...

Rockstar - full blown sandbox game where you travel through space, taking various types of missions.

Epic games - the Collectors took your best friends wife and its up to you and your squad of steroid abusing soldiers to get her back using space chainsaws.

Kojima - Epic story and cutscenes told through a basic space invaders game... :)



Reasonable on 02 February 2010
rocketpig said:
bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
bobobologna said:
rocketpig said:
It's a pretty heavy shooter game but you also have to realize that concessions have to be made for the RPG crowd. The auto-aim and generally, relaxed feel of parts of the game were surely created to appease those who don't drink 14 gallons of Mountain Dew a day and can press an LT-A-B button combo while strafing in .000002 seconds.

The game isn't perfect, I'll admit that. But I can see why they eased off on the extreme shooter elements earlier in the game. Not only does it let less experienced players get into the game (some of us have to remember just how many video games each of us have played over the years) but then it allows the action to get REALLY intense near the end because they haven't used up that gameplay trick by throwing it at the player 140 times before that point.

Remember that some tricks are best used for the climax of the game and if the developer uses it too much before that point, it will become stale to the player and the intensity of the game's ending could be lost.

This is probably the most level headed response to the OP yet.

Which is simply an expanded version of why I said it's not an action game. Sure, there are action elements but BioWare has to make the game accessible to everyone, not just the gaming freaks who can beat Halo on Legendary in four hours.

I see, so this is where we differ.  To me, Mass Effect 1, and from what I've seen and read, Mass Effect 2 are TPS/RPG hybrids.  I guess you just see it as a straight up RPG.

EDIT:  Let me clarify.  If a game is trying to incorporate two different genres together, obviously concessions are going to be made.  And obviously some elements are likely to suffer.  The key is to accept the game as a whole.  But I think it's also valid to criticize certain elements of the game that maybe aren't up to par with other games that are focused solely on one aspect of the gameplay.  Mass Effect 2 is undoubtedly great as a whole, but I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize Mass Effect 2 for failing in some areas as a shooter.

EDIT 2:  And for further clarification, it seems like being a hybrid gives Mass Effect 2 an excuse for not being an excellent shooter.  When you said that it wasn't an action game, you were giving an excuse.  When you detailed why the shooter elements might not have been great, you gave a REASON.

It's fair to criticize anything but my point is that the "weaknesses" of the game need to be put into context. No game can be everything to everyone and that's my problem with the OP's post. In a fantasy world, ME2 would be Gears of War on Insane mixed with Deus Ex mixed with the best elements of Fallout.

Reality has different restrictions. No way can a developer make that game, which kind of invalidates complaining about what is generally a strong TPS/action experience melded into an extraordinary RPG game.

I agree with all your posts on this so far, but being pedantic have to point out a tiny flaw I think I see here.  I don't think his OP or argument is that the game should be all things to all people, I think he's arguing it should be even more polished in the shooting/action elements to suit him (and his preferences).  Small point, but there you go.  I guess if you want to be all things to all people you have to be Tetris - or something like that!

Personally I think Bioware took it to the wire (or damn close) with ME2.  Any lighter on the RPG streamlining coupled with more action and I'd argue they'd tipped the scales completely out of RPG and a fair bit out off the area of Hybrid RPG into Shooter with some very light RPG.  As you say this is a tough move to make.  They could even gain sales making it more like a shooter, but they'd for sure lose a lot of RPG gamers and would take a lot of flack in the process.

It's a tricky balance, and from what I've seen so far ME2 gets it pretty close to perfect.  Mind you, if they were to 'tune' the combat even further - since let's face it there's a lot of it in ME games - then that's fine, so long as the balance isn't negatively affected.

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

heruamon on 03 February 2010

^^^ I'm very happy with the game, but taking the exp out from combat really dilutes the RPG elements...they even streamlined the attribute portion of the game...all of this "hurts" the RPG aspeects of the game, but it is exceptable...anymore streamlining would be bad, imho. The loss of LOOT is really frustrating, imho.



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Solid_Raiden on 03 February 2010

I've been attacked for saying basically the same thing. I don't understand why a TPS/RPG can't be amazing at both aspects. Instead most of RPG hybrids, Mass Effect 1 and 2 included, sacrifice on aspects of both when they merge them. It's not impossible to make an rpg/shooter hybrid that would stand as both a great shooter and a great RPG even if most people say otherwise. I'm having massive amounts of fun with Mass Effect 2 because of the characters, worlds and story but it is severely lacking in both being a TPS and an RPG.




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Senlis on 03 February 2010

I've noticed there are a lot of people who don't like games because they have timers in them. Manjoras Mask and Pikmin come to mind. I can only assume these people don't like challenge, because I thought the time management aspect of the games really added to the experience. Enough of my little rant.

I haven't played Mass Effect 2 yet, and I only played Mass Effect 1 for about 5 hours (I do plan on playing it more later). I have played other Bioware action/rpgs however. Even better than having a timer for suspenseful moments, you should have no timer, but know the building will blow soon (for example). You may see visual clues that the detonation is drawing near, but leave you in suspense as to when that exactly is.

It isn't a matter of "this is an RPG not an action game". Rather, it is an issue of challenge and suspense. RPGs can have suspense, several classics have time based sequences in them.