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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Second hand trade hurts developers as much as software piracy...

Faxanadu on 02 February 2010

@numonex: in the end, someone who has bought a product has the right to resell it. Simple as that. Nothing wrong, nothing illegal.



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The views expressed here may be personal and/or offensive and are not necessarily the views of Faxanadu.

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Thechalkblock on 02 February 2010

Makes sense.

How much money do developers receive for their games when they're pirated?

None.

How much money do developers receive for their games when they're purchased used?

None.

As far as I know this is true, anyone feel free to prove me wrong.



dystopia on 02 February 2010

Once you buy something it's yours to do what you want with it.



Galaki on 02 February 2010

There was some news a while back where they try to push a law in some Europe country that allows the artist to take a dip on resells of their paintings.

That means, each time the painting change hand, the artist takes a certain percentage .



Pre-order limited edition Blue Slime Condoms

joshin69 on 02 February 2010
jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
jammy2211 said:

$15 and $10 are both valid estimates, it depends entirely on circumstance. I was more so just agree with his analysis of the costs of running a store, but if you need to argue like an idiot, use out of context quotes and just completely misinterpret what others say to try piece some sort of a rebutle, go ahead.

 If you actually care you can do a few googles, research how much it costs to run a store, understand that a $10-$15 dollar profit margin is pathetic when you consider the potential losses in selling these games and make try make some sort of a well educated and though-out argument. At the moment you're making replies about something you've clearly absolute no clue or idea about, probably just for the hell of it as you don't want to back track and admit your wrong.

 Nothing you've said yet has actually countered any of my arguments you just repeat the same 'BUT THEY SELL IT FOR MORE THEN THEY BUY IT' thing over and over 8-).

You are the one who hasn't understood my argument. It's very simple, I will spell it out for you:

1- There are (or at least were, before the Gamestop monopoly started buying all stores) many stores which only sell new games (along with accessories and consoles of course), before the used games mania came along. I noticed you're 20 years old so maybe you simply don't remember this pre-Gamestop period very well.

2- These stores were in business for years.

3- Hence, it's reasonable to conclude that this was a reasonable and profitable business model.

Until you have given a reason why this argument doesn't work, or doesn't work anymore (for example by showing some evidence that margins have decreased), you are going against reality.

Basically I'm out of this thread unless you convincingly disprove this argument.

 

My argument is that stores nowadays cannot operate without other forms of income other then just first hand sales. I don't need to look back in the history books as to why it might have been possible - as I know isn't in the current climate - and the simple fact no store is built on that business model now is testament to that.

 I cant honestly recall one store in the UK ever being based entirely on that business model - if anyone in here can name any then pleae do.

Earlier you mentioned the Spectrum ZX, is that the era you're refering to when you say stores used to only sell first hand games? Cause that is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too far back to compare to the industry as it is now. I obviously have limited to knowledge of back then but the way games / retail worked wasn't like it was once Nintendo entered the game.

In the Uk there used to be quite a lot of small shops out of the way which were indi games shops run by gamers, the only other way to get your games cassettes was in whsmiths. This would be back in the comm 64 days (as my fading memory serves)

 

Also, who trades games in these days? With e-bay you get the total games 2nd hand value to yourself and the market pays what the market pays not what secondhand games pirates pay.



 

 assumption is the mother of all f**k ups 

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Alterego-X on 02 February 2010
Faxanadu said:
numonex said:
I'm surprised Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft haven't all pushed for second hand game / software sales to be deemed illegal purely on that point. It wouldn't surprise me at all for it to happen within the next 5 years.

With the current glut of games I often see new release games drop to half price within 2-3 months, makes me wonder how the market can survive. I'm expecting another video games crash like back in the 80s.

Oh my. Very wise idea. As if something this substantial in ownership/copyright would have changed by software developers.

This would have massive effects on everything from selling houses to cars to everything.

 

Please do your homework and stop this stuff. Selling a property you owned is not illegal.

Except that you don't own any game, unless it is actually your own intellectual property.  If it is the publisher's IP, it is THEIR property, you just paid $60 for the right to use it in a way they allowed it to you. It's all written in the EULA. 

If it would be your property, selling, modifying,  and copying it would be equally legal, but it isn't. 

 

 

 



trashleg on 02 February 2010

if it wasn't for second-hand trading, like at car boot sales and eBay and that, i wouldn't have just been able to buy Thousand Year Door for £24.

or Maniac Mansion for £1.99.

Or all those retro Master System games I love so much. Not that I don't like Sega, but they can take a running jump to themselves if they think I'm gonna pay £19 for "Spellcaster" (£2.99, bargain).

I buy plenty of games new, but sometimes it just isn't practical to buy every game new. And if someone gets a cheap 2nd-hand game and likes it, chances are they'll be more alert in the future when a new game is released anyway.



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
NJ5 on 02 February 2010
Alterego-X said:
Faxanadu said:
numonex said:
I'm surprised Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft haven't all pushed for second hand game / software sales to be deemed illegal purely on that point. It wouldn't surprise me at all for it to happen within the next 5 years.

With the current glut of games I often see new release games drop to half price within 2-3 months, makes me wonder how the market can survive. I'm expecting another video games crash like back in the 80s.

Oh my. Very wise idea. As if something this substantial in ownership/copyright would have changed by software developers.

This would have massive effects on everything from selling houses to cars to everything.

 

Please do your homework and stop this stuff. Selling a property you owned is not illegal.

Except that you don't own any game, unless it is actually your own intellectual property.  If it is the publisher's IP, it is THEIR property, you just paid $60 for the right to use it in a way they allowed it to you. It's all written in the EULA. 

If it would be your property, selling, modifying,  and copying it would be equally legal, but it isn't. 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the validity of many EULAs has not been tested in court, let alone in higher courts which can really set a precedent for this sort of stuff.

Just because a publisher writes a EULA which says you're only allowed to install the game once, that doesn't make it legal, and it doesn't make violating the EULA illegal.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Faxanadu on 02 February 2010
NJ5 said:
Alterego-X said:
Faxanadu said:
numonex said:
I'm surprised Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft haven't all pushed for second hand game / software sales to be deemed illegal purely on that point. It wouldn't surprise me at all for it to happen within the next 5 years.

With the current glut of games I often see new release games drop to half price within 2-3 months, makes me wonder how the market can survive. I'm expecting another video games crash like back in the 80s.

Oh my. Very wise idea. As if something this substantial in ownership/copyright would have changed by software developers.

This would have massive effects on everything from selling houses to cars to everything.

 

Please do your homework and stop this stuff. Selling a property you owned is not illegal.

Except that you don't own any game, unless it is actually your own intellectual property.  If it is the publisher's IP, it is THEIR property, you just paid $60 for the right to use it in a way they allowed it to you. It's all written in the EULA. 

If it would be your property, selling, modifying,  and copying it would be equally legal, but it isn't. 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the validity of many EULAs has not been tested in court, let alone in higher courts which can really set a precedent for this sort of stuff.

Just because a publisher writes a EULA which says you're only allowed to install the game once, that doesn't make it legal, and it doesn't make violating the EULA illegal.

 

You bought the physical disk with the data on. That physical disk is your property. You can resell it. End of story.

Dont confuse this with a software license. It is a product, meaning a disk with content on.



Any message from Faxanadu is written in good faith but shall neither be binding nor construed as constituting a commitment by Faxanadu except where provided for in a written agreement signed by an authorized representative of Faxanadu. This message is intended for the use of the forum members only.

The views expressed here may be personal and/or offensive and are not necessarily the views of Faxanadu.

NJ5 on 02 February 2010
Faxanadu said:

You bought the physical disk with the data on. That physical disk is your property. You can resell it. End of story.

Dont confuse this with a software license. It is a product, meaning a disk with content on.

You "can" resell it but you won't be able to if a EULA says you can only install the game once. Then no one will buy the disc from you, as it's useless.

Which brings me back to my point that I don't know if these sort of EULAs are legally enforceable.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957