By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Second hand trade hurts developers as much as software piracy...

I don't think developers and publishers are worried about people buying and selling games once or twice. Its the fact that places like Gamestop churn a title 5-10 times over its lifetime that worries developers. Personally I feel its due to a gap in the market between owning a game and renting a game, if there was some way for publishers to rent out a title for say $15-20 to play it through only once or for say 2 weeks, whichever comes first. Thats why I feel a kiosk based digital distribution system as well as online distribution might help with the used market because it gives people what they want without having to lay down so much money up front.

 



Do you know what its like to live on the far side of Uranus?

Around the Network
Bamboleo said:
DVD's, Car's, Movies, Bikes, Houses...

Second Hand hurts the market in every way...

Haha houses!!?? Do you know what a huge waste of economic resources it would be if they would break down and rebuild every house after one owner?

But seriously from what i understand they can't make second hand trade of games illegal, most they could do is make it impossible to do(Digital Distribution).

But to compare a game to a car or even a bike is a really bad comparison. When you buy something you exchange money for something. I a car's case, the physical product that is the entire car. If you buy a game, you only really buy a disc but you also pay for the right to use the contents on there.

The thing is you do pay for one lincense of that software and therefore own that license, and they can't deny you the right to resell that license.



NJ5 said:

Reduce the gross margin to 20 or 25% and that's still enough to make a healthy profit, for a company which only spends money on rent and low-wage hourly employees. Provided you have a decent sales volume of course, because if you're selling 20 games a day you might as well file for bankruptcy immediately.

Historically there have been plenty of stores which only sold new games. Just because Gamestop is big and sells used games doesn't mean they need it to make a profit.

Well, I'll start by saying that 20% is the correct margin. Since some of the miscellaneous figures I have are a few years old, I'm going to use the prior gen for numbers.

Rent in the mall for my local Gamestop was $2500/month. Assuming 2 employees on duty at all times (which is low, as during busy times, it's usually 3), at an average pay of $7/hr each, in a store open 79 hours a week, plus 1 extra hour for opening and closing procedures per day, is $1204/week in payroll. (A 4 week month gives you $4816.) However, a store will also have probably 2 full-time employees with benefits, which are also paid by the company. I'll figure about another $600/month for these, based on costs lower than what my company paid for me. Then come utilities. I do not have exact numbers, but based on a store of similar size, electric is ~$500/month. Commercial phone lines are also not cheap, and I'd estimate that cost at $200 per month for a 2-line system. Temperature, water, and external security was covered by the mall, so I don't have to factor those. Total cost for 1 month: $8616.

Okay, so this figure should seem doable, right? A $50 game wholesaled for $40, leaving $10 for the merchant. So we need to sell 862 games in the month, or almost 31 of these games each day, to break even. But now that you're open, there's more costs. What if a game is stolen? You'll need to sell 4 more copies just to recoup that loss. (This is why many stores have games in a secure encasement.) But secure encasements, be it like Best Buy's plastic boxes, or Gamestop's locked drawers, can break, and need replacing. I can't estimate costs of this, as there are too many variables. If a customer pays with a credit card, anywhere from 1.9% to 3.9% (dependant on the issuer) plus 30 cents, of the total purchase price is charged as a fee. Oh, and did I mention that part of that total purchase price is tax you may have to collect on the customer? So, a $49.99 game, with a 5% tax rate, purchased with American Express (3.9% rate for larger businesses), has a total fee of $2.35, or almost 1/4 of your profit. Let's keep going, with returns. If this game is returned, you get to keep none of that money, you are not refunded the initial purchase fee, AND you have to pay another transaction fee on the return!

And there's still more costs of doing business. You need price stickers, plastic bags for purchases, receipt paper (or old paper receipts), etc, for things that are sold. While these costs may be negligible per transaction, they do add up to more costs. But you still have the worst cost of all: employee theft and errors. Ideally, your cost would be $0 here. But one day, the drawer is $20 short, because someone miscounted. Consider that a few more lost sales. Was it theft, or an honest mistake? All you can do is watch them in the future, or, if in setup (a completely different set of costs), you have a camera that you can pull the tape on, review that. But it did turn out to be a mistake. There are laws in place that prevent you from charging the employee for it. (Conversely, you wouldn't want to set the standard of letting an employee keep any overages, either, lest they start shortchanging your customers.)

So all's well and good; I sell 60 games per day on average- easily enough to cover the daily costs. Then tax time comes. Uncle Sam sees that you made $X in the year, but you have expenses $Y and $Z. Only $Y is tax-deductable, so you are taxed on $X-Y, and $Z is also directly removed from your margin. You may now be looking at paper-thin profits for the year. It may not be enough for you to live on, and it certainly won't be enough to pay that fatcat executive. Expansion? Don't even think about it on this store; it's not happening in your lifetime!

All of this also ignores one other simplification I made- there are new games below $50. But for the most part, 5 $20 games is equal to 2 $50 games. (You may have to worry about more of the 30 cent CC fees, and the "negligible" costs, though.) So yeah, you need to sell even more games. Given that the standardized margin on MAG in Gamestop right now is $32.99 ($22 trade-in credit, $54.99 selling price), or the Edge margin of $25.29 ($24.20 trade-in, $49.49 sold), it's really easy to see why they moved to used games. Sure, they could probably stay open (with fewer stores) on just new games, but then one would have to wonder if it's worth it for the owner (and fatcats) to do all that paperwork for such little money. I could also go into games sold at a loss, but that's also quite hard to predict, and may have different margins on each game.



-dunno001

-On a quest for the truly perfect game; I don't think it exists...

dunno001 said:
NJ5 said:

Reduce the gross margin to 20 or 25% and that's still enough to make a healthy profit, for a company which only spends money on rent and low-wage hourly employees. Provided you have a decent sales volume of course, because if you're selling 20 games a day you might as well file for bankruptcy immediately.

Historically there have been plenty of stores which only sold new games. Just because Gamestop is big and sells used games doesn't mean they need it to make a profit.

Well, I'll start by saying that 20% is the correct margin. Since some of the miscellaneous figures I have are a few years old, I'm going to use the prior gen for numbers.

Rent in the mall for my local Gamestop was $2500/month. Assuming 2 employees on duty at all times (which is low, as during busy times, it's usually 3), at an average pay of $7/hr each, in a store open 79 hours a week, plus 1 extra hour for opening and closing procedures per day, is $1204/week in payroll. (A 4 week month gives you $4816.) However, a store will also have probably 2 full-time employees with benefits, which are also paid by the company. I'll figure about another $600/month for these, based on costs lower than what my company paid for me. Then come utilities. I do not have exact numbers, but based on a store of similar size, electric is ~$500/month. Commercial phone lines are also not cheap, and I'd estimate that cost at $200 per month for a 2-line system. Temperature, water, and external security was covered by the mall, so I don't have to factor those. Total cost for 1 month: $8616.

Okay, so this figure should seem doable, right? A $50 game wholesaled for $40, leaving $10 for the merchant. So we need to sell 862 games in the month, or almost 31 of these games each day, to break even. But now that you're open, there's more costs. What if a game is stolen? You'll need to sell 4 more copies just to recoup that loss. (This is why many stores have games in a secure encasement.) But secure encasements, be it like Best Buy's plastic boxes, or Gamestop's locked drawers, can break, and need replacing. I can't estimate costs of this, as there are too many variables. If a customer pays with a credit card, anywhere from 1.9% to 3.9% (dependant on the issuer) plus 30 cents, of the total purchase price is charged as a fee. Oh, and did I mention that part of that total purchase price is tax you may have to collect on the customer? So, a $49.99 game, with a 5% tax rate, purchased with American Express (3.9% rate for larger businesses), has a total fee of $2.35, or almost 1/4 of your profit. Let's keep going, with returns. If this game is returned, you get to keep none of that money, you are not refunded the initial purchase fee, AND you have to pay another transaction fee on the return!

And there's still more costs of doing business. You need price stickers, plastic bags for purchases, receipt paper (or old paper receipts), etc, for things that are sold. While these costs may be negligible per transaction, they do add up to more costs. But you still have the worst cost of all: employee theft and errors. Ideally, your cost would be $0 here. But one day, the drawer is $20 short, because someone miscounted. Consider that a few more lost sales. Was it theft, or an honest mistake? All you can do is watch them in the future, or, if in setup (a completely different set of costs), you have a camera that you can pull the tape on, review that. But it did turn out to be a mistake. There are laws in place that prevent you from charging the employee for it. (Conversely, you wouldn't want to set the standard of letting an employee keep any overages, either, lest they start shortchanging your customers.)

So all's well and good; I sell 60 games per day on average- easily enough to cover the daily costs. Then tax time comes. Uncle Sam sees that you made $X in the year, but you have expenses $Y and $Z. Only $Y is tax-deductable, so you are taxed on $X-Y, and $Z is also directly removed from your margin. You may now be looking at paper-thin profits for the year. It may not be enough for you to live on, and it certainly won't be enough to pay that fatcat executive. Expansion? Don't even think about it on this store; it's not happening in your lifetime!

All of this also ignores one other simplification I made- there are new games below $50. But for the most part, 5 $20 games is equal to 2 $50 games. (You may have to worry about more of the 30 cent CC fees, and the "negligible" costs, though.) So yeah, you need to sell even more games. Given that the standardized margin on MAG in Gamestop right now is $32.99 ($22 trade-in credit, $54.99 selling price), or the Edge margin of $25.29 ($24.20 trade-in, $49.49 sold), it's really easy to see why they moved to used games. Sure, they could probably stay open (with fewer stores) on just new games, but then one would have to wonder if it's worth it for the owner (and fatcats) to do all that paperwork for such little money. I could also go into games sold at a loss, but that's also quite hard to predict, and may have different margins on each game.

You pretty much summed up what I wanted to say but really couldn't be bothered to :P. Much more elegent then I would have too.

 The one point your missing is that you're assuming every copy of a game you order, you sell at full price. As far as I understand retailers can easily get stung but ordering 100000 copies of a game, only selling 50000 above wholesale price and then having to take the hit on the rest of the copies. There are in some cases deals put in by the retailers to ensure this doesn't happen, but then they'll have to just pay out extra to keep the publisher of the game happy.

 Plenty more expenses worth mentioning too - insurance for the store, insurance for the employees (I can't believe how high this can be), store maintenance.

 Nice post anyway, thanks for saving me some time lol.



dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Around the Network
NJ5 said:
dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.

The retailers would be laughing all the way to the bank if they got $10 per game on average.



jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.

The retailers would be laughing all the way to the bank if they got $10 per game on average.

You agreed with his analysis which concluded it's a bad business with $10 a game, and now you say it's great?

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:
jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.

The retailers would be laughing all the way to the bank if they got $10 per game on average.

You agreed with his analysis which concluded it's a bad business with $10 a game, and now you say it's great?

 

It would be alright business if it was $10 profit for every game they sold first hand.

 It's not though, it's nowhere near that figure. You've really got no clue though >_>.



jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.

The retailers would be laughing all the way to the bank if they got $10 per game on average.

You agreed with his analysis which concluded it's a bad business with $10 a game, and now you say it's great?

 

It would be alright business if it was $10 profit for every game they sold first hand.

 It's not though, it's nowhere near that figure. You've really got no clue though >_>.

Funny that you were assuming $15 per game as a default value (ignoring all the other factors which are addressed later in dunno001's analysis), and now he comes along with $10 and you agree.

But I'm the one who has no clue, of course. Because everyone knows that in reality all game stores sell used games, right? Everyone knows that all stores are Gamestop or Game, and it's impossible for a store to make a profit without them...

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:
jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
jammy2211 said:
NJ5 said:
dunno001 let me stop you right there at the point you say a retailer gets $10 per game... that is much below every estimate that I've seen.

Regarding stolen games, I'm sure you've noticed that most game stores don't actually have the DVDs in the cases... so that's another misleading assumption.

The retailers would be laughing all the way to the bank if they got $10 per game on average.

You agreed with his analysis which concluded it's a bad business with $10 a game, and now you say it's great?

 

It would be alright business if it was $10 profit for every game they sold first hand.

 It's not though, it's nowhere near that figure. You've really got no clue though >_>.

Funny that you were assuming $15 per game as a default value (ignoring all the other factors which are addressed later in dunno001's analysis), and now he comes along with $10 and you agree.

But I'm the one who has no clue, of course. Because everyone knows that in reality all game stores sell used games, right? Everyone knows that all stores are Gamestop or Game, and it's impossible for a store to make a profit without them...

 

$15 and $10 are both valid estimates, it depends entirely on circumstance. I was more so just agree with his analysis of the costs of running a store, but if you need to argue like an idiot, use out of context quotes and just completely misinterpret what others say to try piece some sort of a rebutle, go ahead.

 If you actually care you can do a few googles, research how much it costs to run a store, understand that a $10-$15 dollar profit margin is pathetic when you consider the potential losses in selling these games and make try make some sort of a well educated and though-out argument. At the moment you're making replies about something you've clearly absolute no clue or idea about, probably just for the hell of it as you don't want to back track and admit your wrong.

 Nothing you've said yet has actually countered any of my arguments you just repeat the same 'BUT THEY SELL IT FOR MORE THEN THEY BUY IT' thing over and over 8-).