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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony on 3rd party exclusivity

jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.



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Masakari said:
What the hell are you talking about? MS bought Rare FROM Nintendo, who needed the cash at the time. Furthermore, nobody knows if MS paid Capcom or not.

See, that's what I mentioned in an earlier page, Sony fans just want all games to themselves. DMC, Tekken, FF, etc have no reason to be exclusive anymore since the PS3 isn't the juggernaut the PS2 was, this time it has serious competition. Why would half the big devs/publishers in the world not publish on a platform with a higher userbase and easier to develop for, and stick to some idiotic brand loyalty? They want to make money, it's just business. "MS bribing everyone" really is a stupid myth that needs to die.


Rare had another majoirty owner and Nintendo had a minority ownership in the company, therefore didn't have complete control.  Of course, instead of making their own 1st/2nd party studio, Microsoft to buy up someone else's sucess and paid off the majority owners of Rare for their %60 of Rare.  Nintendo having a minority control over Rare didn't really have much choice but to give up their minority in the company and Microsoft took over.  Just wish Microsoft would compete with talented production teams and their own studios and 3rd party franchises instead of taking someone else's.



I dont get the big upset and calling them hypocrits. I interpreted as;

"If the competition pays money for exclusivity, fine, we'll live with it. But i want Sony to focus more on producing games like LPB, rather than just passing on a big check."

If he feels that Sony should focus more on producing great titles as LPB rather than spending money on exclusivity, surely its a healthy business approach? Atleast for gamers. New experiences, new IPs, innovations etc. Adding to the library. He dosen't say that its a bad business model to "cripple" the competition by spending money on exclusivity, he even said that "we'll just have to live with it". It's business after all.

Nowhere did he say MS is bad. More like "I feel Sony should focus more on producing great titles". I just think certain people on here are to hostile and to emotionally invested in this console war, and thereby "creates" these types of threads.



Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.



Masakari said:

A lot of companies and franchises that rose up during the PS2 days were still independent, Sony didn't open a lot of studios, they bought them after a few years of relationship - Naughty Dog was bought at the start of the PS2 era, Sony Bend used to be a company called Eidetic, they bought Zipper in 2006, they bought Guerrilla Games after KZ1, etc. It's a popular view that MS "can't create, so they buy everything", well, Sony does the same.

Also, a large part of their successes this gen have been 2nd parties, Sony doesn't own Insomniac, Sucker Punch, ThatGameCompany, Ready At Dawn, etc. Either through dev incentives, publishing, or outright buying exclusivity, these are all companies that have little reason to develop exclusively, yet they do, and you can bet it's not from the kindness of their hearts. it's a popular view that MS "gives incentives, strikes deals, and pays devs", well, Sony does the same.

MS have a different aproach, and I think they have massively wasted the talent they have had before (Ensemble, FASA, Heavy Gun, the flight sim guys), but they have also "helped" megahits bigger than what Sony has (in terms of sales).

Sony and MS are two sides of the same coin. People need to get off this "poetic" idea they have of these corporations, specially Sony (for what they did in bringing games to mainstream), it's just business, and neither one is "more evil" than the other.

Whatever Sony does is the right way cause their games don't go to the PC or get ported to 360 in 6 months.



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jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.

Yeah, Sony was actually pretty blatant about it unlike Microsoft, or Sony this generation.

So was Microsoft even I think... I mean, didn't Microsoft pay to keep some games off gamecube?

Either way, heck, there used to be an actual article about FF7 where they stated due to their publisher agreement they got the right of first refusal on 3 other Square Enix games.  Bushido Blade, Final Fantasty Tactics and.... I don't remember the 4th.



jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.

 

How do you know that the titles you mention didnt get exclusive in a deal where Sony would lend workforce or funds development instead of purchasing license?



Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.

 

How do you know that the titles you mention didnt get exclusive in a deal where Sony would lend workforce or funds development instead of purchasing license?

"Moneyhats" aren't just cash transactions, they usually come in the form of multiple incentives.  Advertising/promotion, distribution deals, reduced royalty fees, co-development/support.  Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony all do these things, all the time.  Microsoft spent $10 million on Lost Planet 1's ad campaign, which is probably why we didn't see a PS3 port for a year.  I would say Nintendo pretty clearly put deals in place for MH3, and ditto for Sony with MGS4.



jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.

 

How do you know that the titles you mention didnt get exclusive in a deal where Sony would lend workforce or funds development instead of purchasing license?

"Moneyhats" aren't just cash transactions, they usually come in the form of multiple incentives.  Advertising/promotion, distribution deals, reduced royalty fees, co-development/support.  Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony all do these things, all the time.  Microsoft spent $10 million on Lost Planet 1's ad campaign, which is probably why we didn't see a PS3 port for a year.  I would say Nintendo pretty clearly put deals in place for MH3, and ditto for Sony with MGS4.

I know that they all do that, its exactly what the article is about. Sony says that they prefer to have a partnership and help with the development of a game instead of purchasing a finish product. So up until now nobody shows any kind of proof that they hadnt been doing that in the PS2 era. The debate wasnt whether Sony gave financial support or not. The debate was how they would handle and give their financial support.



Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Icyedge said:
jarrod said:
Lurker said:
Microsoft relies on it way too much. Shows the inadequacy of their first party. Sony has done it in the past too, but it was only for key games like the GTA series on PS2.

lol.  Sony did it ALL the time the past 2 gens.  GTA series, FF series, DQ series, Tomb Raider series, DMC series, Tekken series, Onimusha series, Ace Combat series, Soul Reaver 2, VF4, SC3, etc, etc.

I think the real issue now is that because they don't have an overwhelming userbase lead, it's getting harder and harder to get 3rd parties to commit to exclusives.  On PS2 buying exclusivity was probably pretty cheap, since that's where 70% of your audience already was anyway (though it backfired sometimes, like with Soulcalibur 3).  Now though, they'd have to convince a 3rd party to look at 45% of the HD base, and only 25% of the overall console base.... sounds like a more expensive proposition from their end.

 

For the same reason you already mention (PS2 userbase) im not sure they even had to pay a dollar for exclusivity. Games that are exclusive does have a bigger hype and a bigger fanbase following it, its an advantage in itself. Using your numbers, since PS2 had 70% of the video game userbase it makes sense for developer to release exclusive without Sony purchasing any license. It cut the development cost and game will sale as much or more since they produce a better title and ensure more hype for the title.

This is only educated guess, I have absolutely no idea if they had to pay or not to receive as many exclusives last gen. I would like proof one way or the other. A lot of people in this thread claim Sony as being hypocrit and unfair player. Is there someone with any proof of contractual agreement between 3rd party and Sony in the times of PS1/PS2 that proves money hatting? Probably not, but you can find a lot of examples of Sony funding development of games, exactly what they are saying. So the educated guess to make is that developers wanted to be exclusives because they knew their titles would sell well and that they could focus only on one version or that the games development was funded by Sony. A partnership VS purchasing a license is definitly not the same thing. If you think it is the same thing because the game end up being an exclusives you should re-think your logic.

Asking for "proof of contracts" is a non-starter, that sort of information isn't public.  You won't find it for 360 games either though, which seem pretty generally accepted to be "moneyhatted".

One specific instance of likely contracted exclusivity though was at E3 2001, where Sony announced that they'd secured 1 year+ long exclusives for VF4, Tekken 4, DMC, Soul Reaver 2, FFX and MGS2.  Another was (again) with Soulcalibur 3, where a Sony rep even joked the only port the game would see would maybe be to PSP.  Sony securing Tomb Raider games after the original on PS1 was pretty well known too (and killed the Saturn version of Tomb Raider 2), and Sony even started using Lara in it's mascot ad campaigns in the mid 90s.

 

How do you know that the titles you mention didnt get exclusive in a deal where Sony would lend workforce or funds development instead of purchasing license?

"Moneyhats" aren't just cash transactions, they usually come in the form of multiple incentives.  Advertising/promotion, distribution deals, reduced royalty fees, co-development/support.  Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony all do these things, all the time.  Microsoft spent $10 million on Lost Planet 1's ad campaign, which is probably why we didn't see a PS3 port for a year.  I would say Nintendo pretty clearly put deals in place for MH3, and ditto for Sony with MGS4.

I know that they all do that, its exactly what the article is about. Sony says that they prefer to have a partnership and help with the development of a game instead of purchasing a finish product. So up until now nobody shows any kind of proof that they hadnt been doing that in the PS2 era. The debate wasnt whether Sony gave financial support or not. The debate was how they would handle and give their financial support.

Er, I'm not seeing the difference.  Incentives for exclusives is what everyone does, and exactly what Microsoft does too.  Microsoft didn't literally "buy" exclusives windows on stuff like Vesperia, Lost Planet, Star Ocean, Bioshock, Ace Combat 6, Mass Effect, etc, etc.  They agreed upon them with stuff like development support, co-promotion, reduced/waved royalties, distribution deals, and so on.

The only real time we have record of a cash transaction was for the GTA4 dlc, and even that seemed to be an interest bearing loan.