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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Bitterness in the Wii fandom?

Davey1983 on 18 January 2010
_honeybadger_ said:

Does it makes business sense to you to target the less prominent demographic of WII owners with a highly complex and hardcore Game? No it doesnt, the games that the big publishers are currently making is trying to get their WII FIT/WII PLAY type of Hit, you think they are not trying but the fact is that they are not making that game for you, they want the expanded audience. Plain an Simple.

You completely missed my point, honeybadger.

 

I don't care if they 'target' me or not.  It annoys me when the companies claim they are targeting me when they obviously are not.

Examples:  Madworld, RE:UC, RE:DC, Deadspace:Extraction.  All of these games were supposedly targeted at the 'Core'-- the companies have flat out said as much.  But these are niche titles at best and would not have sold well on ANY system.  These companies then claim that core titles will not sell on the Wii.  But these companies have not released any 'core' titles-- but they have the audacity to claim that they have and that their failures are somehow my fault for not wanting these games (even though I would probably fit most peoples definition of a 'core gamer', I did not buy any of these games because they are not appealing to the 'core' crowd).

It would be one thing if these companies had actually tried and then claimed that core games would not sell-- I would be fine with that.  It is the hypocrisy of these companies that irritates me.  (I also disagree with your assertion that it would not benefit these companies to make 'highly complex and hardcore' games-- but neither one of us could provide facts to this argument because third parties have yet to bring such games to the Wii).

 

Oddly, the one company that everyone claims is 'going casual' (Nintendo) is the only company that is putting 'core' games on the Wii: Metroid Corruption, Punch-out, Galaxy, Other M, Zelda, Galaxy 2, etc.  I could also add Mario Kart and NSMBWii to this list as well, but those are more bridge titles as Nintendo calls them (in other words, everybody likes them). (This has nothing to do with the conversation, it was just an odd thought that struck me while typing this response).   

Second-- if these companies put out a product as good as Wii Fit, I would buy it (Just Dance has actually caught my eye, I think it would be a fun game for the wife and I to play together).



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TheWon on 18 January 2010
Procrastinato said:
TheWon said:

 

So now this comes up.
The make a Soul Calibur game for the PSP. Which is the most hacked system on the market. Sales for shit in the US. Yet the are willing to take the time. Plus use resources to make a game from scratch. They might not make it's money back. With all that they are willing to try, and not bitch about. When things goes wrong.
How many other games on the HD systems didn't do as good as they wanted. Yet seguels where made for the HD systems.
Burst Limit has done under 1 million on both HD systems. In this day in age if a game does under a 1million is a failure. That's how Wii games get treated. So then the make Raging Blast for them. Which is selling at a slow pace. Still a poorly made Wii game that under sales. Is reason not to make any more Wii games ever again.

Wii Gamers want the fair chance that every one is else is getting, but it's not happen.

You can single out a bunch of failures on HD consoles (which the PSP isn't...), but that won't change the big-picture fact that the HD model, and their HD investments are making them more money than their Wii model and Wii investments.

All the third parties are doing is stating that they are changing their Wii model (more titles, lesser money) to be more like the HD model (less titles, bigger money), or in some cases, that they are just dropping the Wii model, because they don't know how to target the Wii demographics, or if they even can be targetted beyond a few select genres.

This actually seems to be exactly what "forum Wii" owners have always wanted.  I'm surprised that people are even complaining.

Are you serious? The HD model has been the wrong model since the beginning. Thats reason why their is no exclusive games anymore. They need to sell their games on as many platforms as possible to make any gains. That's why they always use total combine sales. Between both systems for their games sales total. 

You noticed that the only talk about games that have sold multi million on both. Combine those sales and you have games that sold 6 to 10 million. Yes those companies are making money on their HD model. How many others are not many those kinds of sales. Yet they keep playing the same role and losing more trying. The same people that make money on the HD systems are making money on Wii. Capcom talks about Zack and Wiki and other Wii games. Yet they never mention Bonic Commando which flopped on both systems. Being a HD game we know it cost more to make then little old Zack and Wiki.

The point is for most people in this thread. Wii are tired of hearing about the failures of all the others. When they are losing just as much or more on those systems.

We hear all the time how Sega don't want to make Mature games on the Wii. Yet the have made the most money overall on the Wii. We never hear about the HD failures. How well has those Sonic games done on PS3?

The PSP in the US is a failure. That way there are no games coming over here. Only high profile seguels. Over in Japan the PSP does well enough to keep getting new fresh content. After saying all of that. With no chance to sale games in areas other then Japan. The huge piracy in the US and Japan. Companies are still willing to through money after. With the hope that the might make something. Again something they are not doing on the Wii. 

Once again Wii owners are not getting a fair shake. Which is what we all are asking for.



 

Just because someone is saying something different. Doesn't mean their point of view is right!

Member Of The Wii Squad: Warriors of Light!

One of the 4 Yonkou of Youtube aka Wii Warlords. Other Members include ThaBlackBaron, Shokio, and Cardy.

_honeybadger_ on 18 January 2010
dunno001 said:
_honeybadger_ said:
dunno001 said:
gekkokamen said:
@dunno001 why should they put any more effort than what Nintendo does with their own games? You ask nintendo for games and they do what? throw you another one of the SAME bones?


I'm not asking for more effort, I'm asking for a comparable effort. They're assigning B and C teams to making spinoffs. This is not equivilant to Nintendo's AAA efforts. And then those B and C games are released to the market to die- no marketing, no hype, no nothing. They have no right to complain about sales if they're not going to actually try to make a good game, let alone sell it. Of course, like any rule, there are exceptions. Note the exceptions, though; they're all niche games. Some people here complain about the sales on them, but the developers, knowing that they're niche, seem to be happy. Why's that? They may not be AAA games, but they are A games for a niche, and they were marketed to sell.

As for Nintendo, they're not throwing just the same bones like you claim. Yes, there is the NPC line, I won't deny that. But what they are good at doing is throwing like-shaped bones. If we see a Super Mario game, we know what to expect. Likewise with Zelda. Metroid? Check. Those of us who've been around a while know what we are getting. The same can not be said of the 3rd party games on the Wii, due to the sheer number of spinoffs. Oh, and Nintendo's not the only party guilty of throwing out the same bones, some of the 3rd parties do that also. In fact, most 3rd party sequels, not just on the Wii, are more closely linked than Nintendo's sequel "bones". But that's an argument for another thread...

So If Im a A team developer, have gained multiple skill/capabilities to creat and program games for the HD consoles/PC, I would have to take less money, stop moving forward with the Industry and regress just so that I make a game on the WII? that makes total sense.

 

The B an C teams make games for the WII because thats the platform that is more adjusted with their skill set and pay level. Remember Nintendo said that WII games would have lower development Budgets and lower prices, but to achieve those results this is the compromise.


You're actually showing a very strong bias in your first paragraph. Firstly, if you think that all it takes to make a good game is to throw a ton of money at it, you're horribly wrong. (You'll also go out of business in short order.) What you need is a team that wants to make fun games. Secondly, "stop moving forward and regress"? The only "regression" is in graphics. The motion controls are a way of moving forward; look at how both Sony and Microsoft are adding them to their repetoire now. A game has to be in HD to be good? Bull. And this gets me to your second paragraph.

Yes, Nintendo did say that games would be cheaper to develop. But that's assuming that everything else was equal. Yes, a B or C team gets paid less, thus a B or C team game on HD would cost less than the AAA team. And besides, isn't part of being an AAA team the ability to adapt to changes? If you can't do that, you're not an AAA team. A true AAA team could make a great game for the Wii and a great game for HD systems. And, given this, the Wii game would be cheaper due to several other factors. (Technically, the AAA team is paid less, but only because of the shorter development time. Their payrate remains unchanged.) But the fact is, the AAA teams aren't even assigned to Wii games. No, the compromise of lower costs isn't only using B and C teams. That creates a further discrepency in costs, and is why companies can afford to whine about "bad" Wii sales. Spend a little more per manhour, and actually have the AAA team make a Wii game. If they do, it will sell. If not, well, then, it should be considered if they're really an AAA team or not, and their pay equally under consideration.

A) game developers salaries is part of the budget for a game, hence the more skilled and competent the developer the higher the game budget will be. so I never said that the only thing you need to do to make a good game is to throw a ton of money at it is you spin on what im trying to express with my post.

 

B) Technology wise when you stop pushing the limits of what you do and being more static you have already regressed, moores law, They would regress because the type A developers have stop keeping up to date with the latest advancements and tecniques that are discovered daily to concentrate on things they were doing roughly 10 years ago. its a regression you cannot spin that to make it look like bias when is a proven fact.

 

B.1) Motion controls are nothing new, they have been available for years before the WII at an arcade near you, But I guess most WII owners forget that fact in order to sustain their dilusions.

 

C) Your example has a fault in that you dont and I dont know how much time it takes to make a Mario Galaxy type of game, or a Zelda Type of game on the WII, and how much money the artist and programers are getting during the development time. I used those examples because they are generally considered to be WII core games of extreme quality.

 

P.S I can fault 3rd party Publishers/developers for trying to get their WII FIT/WII Play type of hit with the expanded audience, and neglect the minority of hardcore WII gamers.



c0rd on 18 January 2010
_honeybadger_ said:

P.S Just Dance may resonate with the expanded audience, but the people that have been rating games for year think that is little more than shovelware and completly void of any quality.

Okay, what does this have to do with anything? It only proves how useless the "people that have been rating games" are when it comes to sales. Nobody should pay any attention to them at all.

All that matters are the people buying the game, and they find Just Dance to be an exceptional title. Look at how it just exploded in the UK. I'm actually considering buying this game now, which is hilarious because its metacritic is at 45.



Procrastinato on 18 January 2010
TheWon said:

Are you serious? The HD model has been the wrong model since the beginning. Thats reason why their is no exclusive games anymore. They need to sell their games on as many platforms as possible to make any gains. That's why they always use total combine sales. Between both systems for their games sales total. 

You noticed that the only talk about games that have sold multi million on both. Combine those sales and you have games that sold 6 to 10 million. Yes those companies are making money on their HD model. How many others are not many those kinds of sales. Yet they keep playing the same role and losing more trying. The same people that make money on the HD systems are making money on Wii. Capcom talks about Zack and Wiki and other Wii games. Yet they never mention Bonic Commando which flopped on both systems. Being a HD game we know it cost more to make then little old Zack and Wiki.

The point is for most people in this thread. Wii are tired of hearing about the failures of all the others. When they are losing just as much or more on those systems.

We hear all the time how Sega don't want to make Mature games on the Wii. Yet the have made the most money overall on the Wii. We never hear about the HD failures. How well has those Sonic games done on PS3?

The PSP in the US is a failure. That way there are no games coming over here. Only high profile seguels. Over in Japan the PSP does well enough to keep getting new fresh content. After saying all of that. With no chance to sale games in areas other then Japan. The huge piracy in the US and Japan. Companies are still willing to through money after. With the hope that the might make something. Again something they are not doing on the Wii. 

Once again Wii owners are not getting a fair shake. Which is what we all are asking for.

The games industry produces more revenue than the movie industry does at the box office, or the movie industry in DVDs (not both together... yet), and you think the model has been wrong since the beginning, eh?



 

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_honeybadger_ on 18 January 2010
Demotruk said:
_honeybadger_ said:

your example fails at a basic level.  The point of my post was to indicate that the Monster Hunter Franchise has made more money to capcom on psp than anywhere else, and when capcom tried to change the experience they were providing on PSP by releasing the game on the WII the 3.6+ millions gamers didnt follow suit, thus they have only sold 980,000 copies a lot after being discounted and its currently available at bargain bin prices and even like that more people buy the game for psp currently.

So..., what does the fact that the PSP following didn't all move to the Wii say about anything? Is it just an angle you can take to make it look like it failed?

The point is that just because you make a game with monster hunter on the title will sell like the best, if it doesnt carry the meaning and the qualities that have make the game a success with the audience. Making a game for the WII (like metal gear) wont sell as well as the one on the console that shares the qualities that make the franchise a success in the first place.

 

cannot make it more clear than that.



_honeybadger_ on 18 January 2010
milkyjoe said:

Every PS360 game that has sold less than MH3 in Japan is a flop confirmed!

Oh wait, that's all but one of them...

Reading comprehension failure. Read again.



Demotruk on 18 January 2010
c0rd said:
_honeybadger_ said:

P.S Just Dance may resonate with the expanded audience, but the people that have been rating games for year think that is little more than shovelware and completly void of any quality.

Okay, what does this have to do with anything? It only proves how useless the "people that have been rating games" are when it comes to sales. Nobody should pay any attention to them at all.

All that matters are the people buying the game, and they find Just Dance to be an exceptional title. Look at how it just exploded in the UK. I'm actually considering buying this game now, which is hilarious because its metacritic is at 45.

Haha, I'm thinking about it too, I'll look into it first though.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

_honeybadger_ on 18 January 2010
Demotruk said:
Wii Fit and Wii Play have sold more than ANY HD game combined across platforms. I guess they shouldn't be making HD games.

Dude Im not even going to respond to this nonsense. Read my other posts in the thread for your answer.



Demotruk on 18 January 2010
_honeybadger_ said:

The point is that just because you make a game with monster hunter on the title will sell like the best, if it doesnt carry the meaning and the qualities that have make the game a success with the audience. Making a game for the WII (like metal gear) wont sell as well as the one on the console that shares the qualities that make the franchise a success in the first place.

 

cannot make it more clear than that.

So you're saying that the Wii version of Monster Hunter cannot be expected to have the same sales as the PSP version. I think everyone here would accept that. But I don't see what the relevency of that fact is.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.