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Forums - Gaming Discussion - WRPGs vs. JRPGs: The Art of Story Telling

Scoobes on 04 January 2010
Reasonable said:
Riachu said:
Reasonable said:
Both tend to be linear I think, however JRPGs use (surprise) more Japanese and Asian methods of revealing character, more overt use of symbolism and metaphor, while WRPGs use Western movie methods for the most part (and often badly truth be told)- although there is an increasing trend to try and adopt emergent story-telling - which I've found wanting for the most part as it mostly means - act good and get these specific quests and result, act bad and get these specific quests and results.

Western movie methods?  

 

I do appreciate that Dragon Age doesn't go for that whole good vs evil thing with the choices.  That means that every choice has both benefits and detriments.

In Western movies, particularly US movies, you have the following structure:

1 - early lock of the conflict (i.e. who is who and what needs to be done and what will happen if you fail)

2 - you then have a number of challenges to overcome that take you closer and closer to resolving the conflict

3 - You then have resolution

 

Every Western RPG like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc. I've played has used US movie template for structure.

So in Mass Effect in the first mission the story is set (the conflict is you have to catch up with Saren and stop him), a few clues are sprinkled (what is that strange ship), you then have a series of linear challenges that take you closer and closer to the end while revealing the plot, then a big resolution that wraps everything up whose basis is essentially you finally catching up with Saren as 'locked' right at the beginning of the story.

Side quests are just that, side quests which are either small or if larger (say the big side quests in Oblivion) then they have their own arc which uses the same structure.  In Mass Effect however, the side quests are frankly a bit rubbish, and are not large enough to warrant more than go here, get this, fight these guys and return.  In Oblivion and Fallout 3 though, there are larger side quests which essentially repeat the formula - for example the Theives Guild side quest in Oblivion.

If you look at the main story in most Western RPGs is basiclly operates like a Hollywood film in terms of how the story is told and the structure used.

Dragon Age I think from what I've seen (I've yet to get it for PC but will soon) looks like it will try and evolve the narrative a bit more.  Fable 2 tried as well, with okay but uneven results.

In the end, as someone who studies film, I see games improving but its still apparent the skillset of those setting the narrative are still somewhat lacking compared to other entertainment industries - but this is improving steadily, and for games that want good dialogue, narrative, etc. I only expect things to improve.  Of course, at the same time, you're going to see more and more titles like Modern Warfare 2 go what I now think of as the Transformers 2 route - cut everything required for a real narrative or story of depth, rely on sterotypes and focus on nothing but the action that takes place between events.  But I doubt RPGs will go this route, thankfully.

 

It's true, even as someone who doesn't study film I can see that currently games storylines are generally quite bad and generic in comparison to films and books. However, I would point out that due to the interactivity of games the storyline isn't quite as important as the way the story is conveyed to the player and the influence the player can have on the details within that story.

I would also point you towards Planescape Torment and Deus Ex as games with high quality storylines (More planescape torment, but I feel Deus Ex's narrative was compelling as well).




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invetedlotus123 on 04 January 2010
Scoobes said:
Reasonable said:
Riachu said:
Reasonable said:
Both tend to be linear I think, however JRPGs use (surprise) more Japanese and Asian methods of revealing character, more overt use of symbolism and metaphor, while WRPGs use Western movie methods for the most part (and often badly truth be told)- although there is an increasing trend to try and adopt emergent story-telling - which I've found wanting for the most part as it mostly means - act good and get these specific quests and result, act bad and get these specific quests and results.

Western movie methods?  

 

I do appreciate that Dragon Age doesn't go for that whole good vs evil thing with the choices.  That means that every choice has both benefits and detriments.

In Western movies, particularly US movies, you have the following structure:

1 - early lock of the conflict (i.e. who is who and what needs to be done and what will happen if you fail)

2 - you then have a number of challenges to overcome that take you closer and closer to resolving the conflict

3 - You then have resolution

 

Every Western RPG like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc. I've played has used US movie template for structure.

So in Mass Effect in the first mission the story is set (the conflict is you have to catch up with Saren and stop him), a few clues are sprinkled (what is that strange ship), you then have a series of linear challenges that take you closer and closer to the end while revealing the plot, then a big resolution that wraps everything up whose basis is essentially you finally catching up with Saren as 'locked' right at the beginning of the story.

Side quests are just that, side quests which are either small or if larger (say the big side quests in Oblivion) then they have their own arc which uses the same structure.  In Mass Effect however, the side quests are frankly a bit rubbish, and are not large enough to warrant more than go here, get this, fight these guys and return.  In Oblivion and Fallout 3 though, there are larger side quests which essentially repeat the formula - for example the Theives Guild side quest in Oblivion.

If you look at the main story in most Western RPGs is basiclly operates like a Hollywood film in terms of how the story is told and the structure used.

Dragon Age I think from what I've seen (I've yet to get it for PC but will soon) looks like it will try and evolve the narrative a bit more.  Fable 2 tried as well, with okay but uneven results.

In the end, as someone who studies film, I see games improving but its still apparent the skillset of those setting the narrative are still somewhat lacking compared to other entertainment industries - but this is improving steadily, and for games that want good dialogue, narrative, etc. I only expect things to improve.  Of course, at the same time, you're going to see more and more titles like Modern Warfare 2 go what I now think of as the Transformers 2 route - cut everything required for a real narrative or story of depth, rely on sterotypes and focus on nothing but the action that takes place between events.  But I doubt RPGs will go this route, thankfully.

 

It's true, even as someone who doesn't study film I can see that currently games storylines are generally quite bad and generic in comparison to films and books. However, I would point out that due to the interactivity of games the storyline isn't quite as important as the way the story is conveyed to the player and the influence the player can have on the details within that story.

I would also point you towards Planescape Torment and Deus Ex as games with high quality storylines (More planescape torment, but I feel Deus Ex's narrative was compelling as well).

Well. We could add Xeno series in this list. MGS is open to discuss.



Riachu on 04 January 2010
invetedlotus123 said:
Scoobes said:
Reasonable said:
Riachu said:
Reasonable said:
Both tend to be linear I think, however JRPGs use (surprise) more Japanese and Asian methods of revealing character, more overt use of symbolism and metaphor, while WRPGs use Western movie methods for the most part (and often badly truth be told)- although there is an increasing trend to try and adopt emergent story-telling - which I've found wanting for the most part as it mostly means - act good and get these specific quests and result, act bad and get these specific quests and results.

Western movie methods?  

 

I do appreciate that Dragon Age doesn't go for that whole good vs evil thing with the choices.  That means that every choice has both benefits and detriments.

In Western movies, particularly US movies, you have the following structure:

1 - early lock of the conflict (i.e. who is who and what needs to be done and what will happen if you fail)

2 - you then have a number of challenges to overcome that take you closer and closer to resolving the conflict

3 - You then have resolution

 

Every Western RPG like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc. I've played has used US movie template for structure.

So in Mass Effect in the first mission the story is set (the conflict is you have to catch up with Saren and stop him), a few clues are sprinkled (what is that strange ship), you then have a series of linear challenges that take you closer and closer to the end while revealing the plot, then a big resolution that wraps everything up whose basis is essentially you finally catching up with Saren as 'locked' right at the beginning of the story.

Side quests are just that, side quests which are either small or if larger (say the big side quests in Oblivion) then they have their own arc which uses the same structure.  In Mass Effect however, the side quests are frankly a bit rubbish, and are not large enough to warrant more than go here, get this, fight these guys and return.  In Oblivion and Fallout 3 though, there are larger side quests which essentially repeat the formula - for example the Theives Guild side quest in Oblivion.

If you look at the main story in most Western RPGs is basiclly operates like a Hollywood film in terms of how the story is told and the structure used.

Dragon Age I think from what I've seen (I've yet to get it for PC but will soon) looks like it will try and evolve the narrative a bit more.  Fable 2 tried as well, with okay but uneven results.

In the end, as someone who studies film, I see games improving but its still apparent the skillset of those setting the narrative are still somewhat lacking compared to other entertainment industries - but this is improving steadily, and for games that want good dialogue, narrative, etc. I only expect things to improve.  Of course, at the same time, you're going to see more and more titles like Modern Warfare 2 go what I now think of as the Transformers 2 route - cut everything required for a real narrative or story of depth, rely on sterotypes and focus on nothing but the action that takes place between events.  But I doubt RPGs will go this route, thankfully.

 

It's true, even as someone who doesn't study film I can see that currently games storylines are generally quite bad and generic in comparison to films and books. However, I would point out that due to the interactivity of games the storyline isn't quite as important as the way the story is conveyed to the player and the influence the player can have on the details within that story.

I would also point you towards Planescape Torment and Deus Ex as games with high quality storylines (More planescape torment, but I feel Deus Ex's narrative was compelling as well).

Well. We could add Xeno series in this list. MGS is open to discuss.

MGS and FF are up for discussion.



 

http://www.youtube.com/user/InvaderZimGuy1?feature=mhum

Scoobes on 05 January 2010

^ I'm not sure about MGS. Although the story is complicated, deep and good for a game. Individual MGS iteration storylines are good but when you bring them all together they become convoluted and he (Kojima) just goes over the top in trying to bring everything together. Don't get me wrong, I love the story and the MGS games but I don't think it can be classed in the same league as Planescape Torment. Tbh, FF games are worse.




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Zer0John on 05 January 2010

JRPS have linear stories, while WRPG often have a open world where the player has more freedom while the story isn't that important. In JRPG, characters and the story are the central point, there isn't a free world but the story is often told in cinematics or at least they really focus on the story. Free world means also that there characters are mostly more customizable and the leveling procees is more detailed. Another difference, what has also to do with the free world is that you can choose being good or evil, you can do whatever you want, while in JRPG this isn't possible, you have to do what you're told to do.

Personally i like both, but i prefer JRPGs, even if the last one on this generation sucked!



Favourite Games:

PS: Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy VII. PS2: Resident Evil 4, Shadow Hearts Covenant, Final Fantasy X, Silent Hill 4, Soul Calibur III. PS3: Metal Gear Solid 4, Heavy Rain, Valkyria Chronicles, Uncharted 2, Mototstorm PR, God of War III, Modern Warfare 2. Xbox: Suteki, Fatal Frame II DC, Jade Empire. 360: Dead Rising, Lost Odyssey, Dead or Alive 4.

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Senlis on 05 January 2010

I used to love JRPGs, but as time goes by I keep liking WRPGs more, and I think there is a reason for that.

As time goes by, the quality and depth of WRPGs 'choose your own adventure' story improves. Nowadays it is just amazing what they can mold into a game. Video games are an interactive medium, and the story should play out that way. ie: the more interactive you can make the story, the better.

Contrasted, as time goes by, the story-telling methods of JRPGs gets more and more dated. JRPGs try their hardest to be books or movies with gameplay added to the story. However, the best video game's story cannot compare to the best book/movie's story. This is because the video game has so much more to work on (graphics and gameplay) than books/movies (ok: movies sometimes have GCI).

To summarize, video games have a lot more to work on than simply story, and competing directly with movies and books in storytelling results in fail. That is why WRPGs storytelling is better, since they do something books and movies can't do well, interaction. I am probably going to get a lot of hate for this post, but hopefully some JRPGs can see the reasoning behind my opinion.




 

ktchong on 05 January 2010

Listen up, guys.  If you really want to compare (linear) "storytelling" between Western and Japanese games, don't compare JRPGs to WRPGs.  Instead, compare JRPG to Western ADVENTURE games: The Longest Journey. Dreamfall. Syberia. Grim Fandango. etc.  In the West, Adventure is the "storytelling" genre in gaming.  In Japan, it's RPG.

I'd say the stories and storytelling in the Western Adventure Game genre are far, far superior than JRPG.

Just a few points I want to make:

What American gamers generally want from our games is GAMEPLAY.  We don't want inflexible linear storytelling with little or no gameplay in some gcinema-pretending-to-be-game.  We can get our "story" fix from films and movies, which are really the superior formats for telling linear stories anyway.  We really don't need to play a game to get a good linear story. When I want a good story and beautiful cinematics, I go to a movie theater or rent a DVD.   Seriously, games can't compare to movies in terms of cinematic storytelling. 

That's the reason why American gamers have generally move away from JRPGs -- because we have movies. Nowadays American developers no longer makes adventure games -- simply because American gamers don't like them and don't play them, but Europeans still make them.

Why do Europeans still make storytelling adventure games?  Europeans, like Japanese, no longer have a prosperous movie and film industry.  Hollywood basically killed off the movie industry in Europe and Japan -- because Americans ARE much, much better at making movies and telling cinematic stories.  Here in America, the best and the brightest artists and storytellers go into moviemaking.  In Europe and Japan, which really do not have a movie industry to speak of, the best and the brightest artists and storytellers either (a) are lured away to Hollywood, or (b) go into making games.... and those guys who go into making games really aren't as good as the best and brightest in the movie industry, i.e., James Cameron, Peter Jackson, Christopher Nolan, JJ Abram -- these are the storytelling masters in Hollywood.  No one from Japan can serious compare.

We have James Cameron and Peter Jackson and the best storytellers here in Hollywood.  We really don't need to play games to get a good story.   Japanese, on the other hand, who no longer has a movie industry, have to get their story fix from playing games.

Seriously, if you want to compare who -- the West or Japanese -- have the best storytelling, don't compare WRGP and JRPG.   Let's compare James Cameron's Avatar, Peter Jackson's Lords of the Rings, or Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight -against- Final Fantasy, Naruto, Slamdunk, Dragonball.  The West's BEST against Japanese' BEST.  Let's be honest here: Who do you think comes out atop?  Puh-lease.

Japanese best storytellers are making Final Fantasy and some JRPGs.  The West's best storytellers are not making phucking games.  They are making EPIC MOVIES.

 

P.S. Do you know the guy who made God of War was a Hollywood reject?  He couldn't cut it in Hollywood... so he went to make games.  He's the top of the world in the game industry.  In Hollywood, he's a nobody and failure.

 



Scoobes on 05 January 2010

^ That's a pretty good point. Adventure games made in the West are actually pretty comparable in the way they convey the story to the gamer with JRPGs. They're effectively old style western adventure games with a battle and levelling system (and more CG movies).




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ktchong on 05 January 2010

In terms of storytelling,

The West's BEST > Japanese Best

The West's best in storytelling = James Cameron's Avatar, Peter Jackson's Lords of the Rings, Chris Nolan's Dark Knight, EPIC Hollywood movies

Japanese' best in storytelling = anime and JRPG. (Puh-lease)

Hollywood EPIC movies > anime and JRPG.

Let say if you're a guy and you have a gift in telling stories, do you want to make movies or make games?  You have a penis.  Do you want to go into an industry in which you'll be surrounded by beautiful ladies and become internationally famous like the "King of the World," or do you want to work with other geeks?  Seriously.  That's why the best storytellers and artists in the West go into making movies instead of making games.  If the best in Japanese had a choice, they would go into making movies as well (but they did not because Japan's movie industry is dead, killed off by Hollywood.)

May sounds offensive to all your Japanophiles, but that's just how it is. 



Scoobes on 05 January 2010
ktchong said:

In terms of storytelling,

The West's BEST > Japanese Best

The West's best in storytelling = James Cameron's Avatar, Peter Jackson's Lords of the Rings, Chris Nolan's Dark Knight, EPIC Hollywood movies

Japanese' best in storytelling = anime and JRPG. (Puh-lease)

Hollywood EPIC movies > anime and JRPG.

Let say if you're a guy and you have a gift in telling stories, do you want to make movies or make games?  You have a penis.  Do you want to go into an industry in which you'll be surrounded by beautiful ladies and famous as the "King of the World," or do you want to work with other geeks?  Seriously.  That's why the best storytellers and artists in the West go into making movies instead of making games.

2 of the films you mentioned are from known franchises or stories where the story is already set in stone and the the director's had to interpret the story to produce the brilliant films (LotR and Dark Knight). That's less to do with story and more to do with great directing, editing and acting. I'd also like to point out that Tolkien was British and that's where the story comes from for LotR. The last film you mentioned (Avatar) has a pretty unoriginal story and fairly average story structure and characters. Just go into one of the Avatar threads on this board and you'll see plenty saying the same. The appeal of Avatar isn't in the story but the world the film conveys and the way it's conveyed. The epic Hollywood films you're talking about really are quite light on story and heavy on special effects.

And I'd also like to point out that Hollywood seems to be running out of ideas and is copying films from the East. The Ring, Grudge, Dark Water, The Departed (Infernal Affairs in Hong Kong) were all remade in Hollywood, and mostly they were done in ways that were inferior to the orginal Asian film. And there are plenty of classic Asian films that you probably haven't seen that are true masterpieces (watch Battle Royale, Audition, Oldboy). The same goes for Europe (Pan's Labyrinth, Irreversible, REC). The reason you probably haven't heard of them is because they don't get advertised, because they haven't got the funds to advertise them globally.

Also, if you watched the Oscars last year you might have noticed Slumdog Millionaire won a load of awards. That wasn't a Hollywood film, it was British, and was mostly set in Asia.

The point I'm trying to make is Japan's best storytelling really isn't in anime and JRPGs although you might find some of the weirdest. The other point is Hollywood really doesn't tell the best stories in the world (although some are great) I also can't believe you didn't put Tarrantino, or mention Shawshank Redemption in the West's best films/stories.




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