By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Natal is to 360 what Wii is to Gamecube?

Exactly my thinking TC.

Wii = A repackaged Gamecube bundled with a new controller and sold for $250

Xbox Xlim = A redesigned Xbox 360 bundled with a new controller and sold for $150/250



Around the Network
JaggedSac said:
Nice thread. A couple of questions for you.

Are you suggesting that games be made to work for both the original 360 specs and these enhanced ones? Perhaps a few that are enhanced only? This could be an issue with developers unless MS develops software for easy development and handling of the two different sets of game assets. This would not really be an issue for first party 360 or third party PC/360 games, but console only multiplats would probably not utilize the higher end specs of the enhanced 360s unless Sony released a newer console or enhanced specs for the PS3 as well. Perhaps it isn't an issue.

What possibilities with Natal will the current 360 specs not be able to handle?

The Xbox and Xbox 360 use a Microsoft proprietary API. Since everything passes through the Microsoft API they can be sure they can offer consistant results that the software expects even with different hardware in use. In addition they can cause the hardware to react in a different way to the same program and without any extra input from the developer. So they could push out a different result, like for instance they could take Halo 3 and turn it into a 3D game without the game engine itself noticing any difference because they control the API and hardware and dictate to some extent how programs are to be written.

You would not need different assets to render a game engine which was 720P on the Xbox 360 to 3D 1080P on the Xbox Natal (resolution changes need a little developer input so only future titles) and both Xbox 360 and Xbox Natal users would be experiencing the exact same content but rendered in a slightly different way.

Microsoft is an iterative company, they don't tend to make sweeping changes to their product lineup. Updated hardware is a cautious first step towards 3D and to full HD output without the risk of a full blooded new architecture. The closer the hardware is in performance and architecture between hard generations (Xbox 1 -> 360 being different architectures) the easier it is to support both. Windows Vista would be Xbox 360, Windows 7 would be Xbox Natal and incorporate both forward thinking and full backwards compatibility.



Tease.

Squilliam said:
JaggedSac said:
Nice thread. A couple of questions for you.

Are you suggesting that games be made to work for both the original 360 specs and these enhanced ones? Perhaps a few that are enhanced only? This could be an issue with developers unless MS develops software for easy development and handling of the two different sets of game assets. This would not really be an issue for first party 360 or third party PC/360 games, but console only multiplats would probably not utilize the higher end specs of the enhanced 360s unless Sony released a newer console or enhanced specs for the PS3 as well. Perhaps it isn't an issue.

What possibilities with Natal will the current 360 specs not be able to handle?

The Xbox and Xbox 360 use a Microsoft proprietary API. Since everything passes through the Microsoft API they can be sure they can offer consistant results that the software expects even with different hardware in use. In addition they can cause the hardware to react in a different way to the same program and without any extra input from the developer. So they could push out a different result, like for instance they could take Halo 3 and turn it into a 3D game without the game engine itself noticing any difference because they control the API and hardware and dictate to some extent how programs are to be written.

You would not need different assets to render a game engine which was 720P on the Xbox 360 to 3D 1080P on the Xbox Natal (resolution changes need a little developer input so only future titles) and both Xbox 360 and Xbox Natal users would be experiencing the exact same content but rendered in a slightly different way.

Microsoft is an iterative company, they don't tend to make sweeping changes to their product lineup. Updated hardware is a cautious first step towards 3D and to full HD output without the risk of a full blooded new architecture. The closer the hardware is in performance and architecture between hard generations (Xbox 1 -> 360 being different architectures) the easier it is to support both. Windows Vista would be Xbox 360, Windows 7 would be Xbox Natal and incorporate both forward thinking and full backwards compatibility.

Yeah, that could work. 



arsenicazure said:
I dont think at this point MS is gonna prod their already displeased userbase with hardware revision(RAM et al).. natal should be an interesting idea.. but its a lot like the wii is to the gamecube.. a newer means of input rather than a hardware overhaul.

The 360 userbase is displeased?



hmm.. but wait.. so your suggesting that the Natal camera will have a GPU/CPU making the hardware different AND have just natal games?

if that is true Natal IS a new console.. no matter how you put it its basically a add-on to make it a new console..



Currently playing: MAG, Heavy Rain, Infamous

 

Getting Plat trophies for: Heavy Rain, Infamous, RE5,  Burnout and GOW collection once I get it.

 

Around the Network

Does that mean that Project Natal is nothing more than two 360s duct-taped together? (Sorry I could not resist the cheap shot).

Seriously, this is not a new console -- it is an add-on, akin to the Sega CD or the Wii Balance Board.
It may extend the life of the console by a short period. But it is a Wii like revolution with backward compatibility but rather an evolutionary step in the history of the console.

Mike from Morgantown



      


I am Mario.


I like to jump around, and would lead a fairly serene and aimless existence if it weren't for my friends always getting into trouble. I love to help out, even when it puts me at risk. I seem to make friends with people who just can't stay out of trouble.

Wii Friend Code: 1624 6601 1126 1492

NNID: Mike_INTV

gamelover2000 said:
hmm.. but wait.. so your suggesting that the Natal camera will have a GPU/CPU making the hardware different AND have just natal games?

if that is true Natal IS a new console.. no matter how you put it its basically a add-on to make it a new console..

He is saying that the 360 will get a hardware upgrade when Natal launches.



KBG29 said:
Sorry, I can't edit my post from the PS3 browser, but I thought of two big problems.

DVD, and developer support.

Right now Sony has the advatnage with Cell, and Blu-ray, but devs are not taking advantage of them. This leads me to believe that the same would happen with the extra memory added to the Natal. Also as of right now MS is already battling despratly over disc space. Doubling the assets would mean every game on multiple discs, or very small games.

So I think if this happed, only MS games would see the benefit, and unless it started selling like the Wii that would not change.

I think it may be wiser just to stick to the 2013 - 14 for new consoles.

One way MS could fix the disc problem is to go the PC route. Compress all the games into a zip or executable file that you install to the hard drive. Once you start installing, the file expands into several gig's of info on the hard drive, which the game will play off of then.

The only big problem facing this is the overpriced hard drives on the market for the 360. If MS adopted this idea, the vast majority of games would require installation, and if they're massive in the amount of storage, then that could eat up the hard drives capacity, forcing users to go out and shell out another $100 for just 60GB of space. Plus all the arcade users, like me, would be screwed. If MS made everything install only, like the PC, then they would need to drop the price of hard drives considerably. Because, honestly, paying almost $200 for 120 gigs of space is highway robbery. You could buy a 320 gig hard drive for half that for the PC, so they can't cost that much to produce.



KBG29 said:
It would be an industry rocking move if they did this. I actually think this would be a great move, and I would get behind it without a second thought. Like you said, RAM is the place to hit. What I wolud do is bump up the Xenos on chip RAM to 24MB so it can do its job at 1080p without any fallbacks. Then add another 512MB of memory to the main pool, and through in 256MB of SSD for the OS. With these minor upgrades they would see major performance improvments.

Launch Xbox Natal at $399, and I think MS would have a winner on their hands.

Oh, but one thing they have to think of. May not be that big of a deal, but they have to make sure that the Zune market place is offering 3D versions of the same movies Blu-ray is offering. I don't see why they couldn't, but you know if they don't Sony will be shouting only game console with 3D movies


"DVD, and developer support.

Right now Sony has the advatnage with Cell, and Blu-ray, but devs are not taking advantage of them. This leads me to believe that the same would happen with the extra memory added to the Natal. Also as of right now MS is already battling despratly over disc space. Doubling the assets would mean every game on multiple discs, or very small games.

So I think if this happed, only MS games would see the benefit, and unless it started selling like the Wii that would not change.

I think it may be wiser just to stick to the 2013 - 14 for new consoles."

I didn't want to deal with the optical drive in the original post because it would have made it too long. In every change they would make to the hardware they have to consider it from a cost and revenue perspective. I.E. Does this change give them more revenue OR does this change reduce the cost of the console OR both. Anything which doesn't meet this criteria cannot be considered as a plausible change to the hardware.

Now in regards to the optical drive they do have two options they can implement either at the same time or either/or.

1. Implement Blu Ray in the console.

They would do this only if they could off-set the cost of this change with additional revenue. Implementing Blu Ray for the Xbox 360 doesn't make sense because it would be an identical implementation to the PS3. The Xbox 360 could not benefit from this but improved Xbox hardware would. They can implement hybrid DVD/Blu Ray discs as the technology is maturing and the Natal hardware makes sense for Blu Ray as the Natal hardware can be used as a media centre interface. So rather than paying for the cost of the Drive + $10 per console for a royalty they can charge the end user $30-50 to implement Blu Ray movie playback and turn it into a profit centre/break even proposition and give the end user one more good reason to purchase an Xbox Natal.

2. They can use the reserve space on their DVD discs. Xbox 360 discs are 6.8GB, Dual layer DVD discs are 8.5GB. They have 1.7GB of space spare. This is the cheaper option of the two to implement as it doesn't require any changes to the discs at all. They lose 1GB of space to the DVD movie that plays when you put it into a DVD player and if they used that they could put all the Natal upgraded console specific code and data in there like more advanced assets, game engines etc so the same disc put into a Natal console could display in full 1080P with 3D if desired.

As for the Ram. Theres a dual purpose which I feel justifies the increase. The current Xbox 360 devotes 32MB of ram to the OS functions, if they increased that to 100-200MB they could implement advanced Natal features like having a visual display of your team-mates using the Natal camera in game rather than audio only, improved audio quality etc. However the real reason to do this is so they can implement advanced services such as a form of Natal Windows for those who wish for it. They have no reason to not allow people to browse away from Xbox Live if they earn a subscription for ceding that right. They don't need a full 1GB of ram for 1080P assets, a simple doubling of Ram allocated to video memory would be enough.



Tease.

@Squill

Good points. I was thinking a BD Drive would be a little spendy, and I was worried about seperate versions for 360 and Natal, but I never thought of the hybrid discs. If they went that route it could help the dev support since they could make full use of the space on both the PS3 and Xbox Natal.

The DVD route I still see as a bad way to go in this scenario. I just don't think they have the room. Even opening up the extra space, things would be tight.

As for your OS ideas, I really like that direction. Whether or not they do Xbox Natal or not, that is something I deffinatly want to see in the future.



Stop hate, let others live the life they were given. Everyone has their problems, and no one should have to feel ashamed for the way they were born. Be proud of who you are, encourage others to be proud of themselves. Learn, research, absorb everything around you. Nothing is meaningless, a purpose is placed on everything no matter how you perceive it. Discover how to love, and share that love with everything that you encounter. Help make existence a beautiful thing.

Kevyn B Grams
10/03/2010 

KBG29 on PSN&XBL