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Forums - Sony Discussion - Killzone 2 > MW2

Squilliam said:
wholikeswood said:

COD2 on 360 managed 2.5mil sales, despite releasing to a tiny userbase. Argue that it came out not long after the 360's launch and as such had little competition all you like, but if you look at its sales curve you'll see that it sold steadily rather than launching high and tailing off fast, so it's irrefutable that word of mouth began passing around and that the series had thus forged a fanbase on the HD console.

As for your 60fps argument, I'm just going to giggle and shake my head. Picture someone telling their friend at college that they should play such and such a game because its framerate is locked in at a solid 60fps. Actually don't bother, because it doesn't ever happen in real life. Call of Duty is simply mainstream in appeal and accessible in difficulty to even the most casual gamer. End of.

"Even if the difference between Killzone 2 and MW 1 + 2 is simply that the latter are easier to play than the former then the latter has better gameplay."

An incredibly ignorant statement, yet again. You've wasted breath in this thread by toeing the "sales = quality" line, and now you're going to peddle this "accessibility = quality" theory? Beyond risible.

What framerate did Call of Duty have? 60FPS NTSC or HDTV or 50 FPS on PAL SDTVs. What experience did PS3 FPS players have before playing Killzone 2? Most of them played Call of Duty 4. What does frame-rate effect? Controls, accurace and responsiveness. What framerate did Killzone 2 players enjoy? 25FPS-30FPS SDTV or 25-30 HDTV. What does a lower frame rate effect? Game control. What feature do all games have where the responsiveness of input is paramount? 60FPS. People won't say 'oh god that game has terrible frame-rate' they will say that 'the controls are jerky'. What did people complain about the most with Killzone 2? Controls. Theres the connection.

60FPS plays better than 30FPS, always. 60FPS gives a better experience than 30FPS when game control matters like with online shooters or racing games or fighting games, always.

Lastly the people on the PS3 had no reason to believe that Call of Duty IV would be any good because the previous version kinda sucked. They already had a bad taste in their mouth if they had the previous version. Games are meant to be enjoyed by people, so having a more accessible game for people who aren't as familiar with using dual analogue sticks widens your potential market. Just as reviewers mark a game down for having a difficult U.I. then its appropriate to mark a game down or up for being better or worse for accessibility. Since reviewers don't tend to mark games for accessibility then there has to be some metric to judge and that has to be sales because thats the only reasonably objective metric once you discount some of the reviewers score.

Sales != quality as a broad spectrum metric. Sales do distinguish between games which target the same demographics with similar gameplay and review scores.

Killzone 2's controls weren't criticised for their "lack of visual fidelity or bla bla bla", they were criticised for being slow and considered rather than being like aiming on crack, or at least that's how my online friends felt. In truth, this whole framerate argument is getting far more time than it merits, so I'm not going to argue this point with you anymore - if you feel framerate ruined Killzone 2 then fine, and likewise I'm going to just sit here confident that that's nonsense.

"... so having a more accessible game for people who aren't as familiar with using dual analogue sticks widens your potential market... Since reviewers don't tend to mark games for accessibility then there has to be some metric to judge and that has to be sales... "

So now you seemed to have changed your stance from "accessibility = quality" (wrong) to what I was already suggesting as the reason for Modern Warfare's success - "accessibility = sales". Thanks, I guess...



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wholikeswood said:

"... so having a more accessible game for people who aren't as familiar with using dual analogue sticks widens your potential market... Since reviewers don't tend to mark games for accessibility then there has to be some metric to judge and that has to be sales... "

So now you seemed to have changed your stance from "accessibility = quality" (wrong) to what I was already suggesting as the reason for Modern Warfare's success - "accessibility = sales". Thanks, I guess...

Accessibility on some level does relate to the scores in a review. Since these reviews are a measure of quality, so long as a game is considered accessible for the reviewers whom tend to be expert game players then they generally get an instant pass mark. However a pass mark from a reviewer does not mean that a game gets a pass mark from the general gaming public. I don't see how making a game less accessible can make it a better game when the game is a blockbuster title. If the game was catering to some niche then you would apply a different standard, however neither game is what you'd call a niche title.

Accessibility is a 'good quality' of a game which can be one of its many good qualities. The more good qualities a game has then the better the overall quality of the title.



Tease.

All this framerate nonsense is funny. I never noticed any slowdown in KZ1, since I'm more of a casual gamer than anything. I never notice small issues like framerate or screen tearing. I find that some people put too much emphasis on it.

What I think matters more to casual gamers is the ability to join a game within seconds. Which MW2 is better at. I have played about 24 hours of KZ2 and 100 hours of MW2. I like the game play more in KZ2 but play MW2 a lot more since my FL is always playing it and I can join a game in about 20 seconds. No matter how much it lags..... Laggy POS.



I concur. My only gripe is the lack of weapon variety and co-op. Killzone 2 is a grown man's shooter.



KylieDog said:

 

Sorry but this framerate theory is silly.  If that is what people cared about they wouldn't be buying 360s or PS3s.   Call of Duty MW1/2 are dumbed down and about as steamlined/noob friendly as you can get.  That is why it is popular, because anyone can pick it up and instantly qualify as 'good' at the very least thanks to auto-aim assist and almost instant kills and numerous other things.  Then from these people word of mouth spread it along.

 

The only problems with KZ2 controls was the massive deadzone and high slow aim acceleration it had at launched.  It turned off many people.  Sure, they patched it months after release to fix the problems but the damage had been done by then.  Unlike MW spreading by good word of mouth KZ2 had people doing the opposite and not recommending it.

 

Word of mouth is why WaW didn't sell as well either.  Too many people spouting the 'TreyArch suck' nonsense ignoring the fact it was superior on a technical and content front.

People don't care for frame-rates in just the same way they don't care about the technology of the games engine. If a game looks good and plays good then thats enough for most people. Better frame-rates make a game play better and better game engines make a game look better. The fact that they don't know what anisotropic filtering is doesn't matter, anyone can see badly filtered textures and say that it looks bad. People like the responsiveness and speed of the controls and that would not be possible with the title running at 30FPS. It would be impossible to make a Call of Duty game as good if it ran at Killzone 2 speeds that sold as well as it did. Its a fact that a responsive game is easier to control than an unresponsive game.

Killzone 2's controls are a design decision to optimise the game engine for parellel loads which means they sacrafice latency for visuals. Its the same deal as Uncharted 2 having a completely linear game designed around their streaming system where the player cannot back track. A good design hides the design tradeoffs to make the game appear to be all pro and no con. Guerilla games failed to do this somewhat and the control system was dictated to them in order to hide the slow response.

As for Call of Duty World at War, yes I enjoyed that game more than both MW2 but less than Killzone 2 personally. In terms of some of the design choices with regards to gameplay I felt that it was a little bit lacking, but it never got in the way of the fun. I never finished MW1/2 but I did finished WAW and Killzone 2 more than once.

 



Tease.