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Forums - Microsoft - Final Fantasy XIII 360 Losing 15GB

twesterm on 21 December 2009
Damnyouall said:
twesterm said:
Feylic said:
twesterm said:
=

Wait, but isn't FFXIII on a dual layer BluRay?

Does that mean the read for that will be slowed?

Well, I'll assume you have the internet, so why don't you find out for us.

I tried but couldn't find any info on it.  I found that writing dual layer takes half as long, but didn't find anything on reading dual layer. 

Part of me makes me say well that obviously means that reading takes twice as long too! while another part says perhaps they don't list it because they're the same! and then another part tells me well they classify dual layer even if it's the same everywhere else! and then the voices start fighting and I don't know enough about this stuff to make a decision and my head hurts.

I want candy.

Bolded part doesn't make sense. Writing twice the amount will obviously take at least twice as long.

As far as reading is concerened, I haven't read anything about dual layer Blu Ray discs being slower, so I assume they aren't.

Whoops, twice as long.  Damn voices messing up my posting.



 

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Feylic on 21 December 2009
twesterm said:
Damnyouall said:
twesterm said:
Feylic said:
twesterm said:
=

Wait, but isn't FFXIII on a dual layer BluRay?

Does that mean the read for that will be slowed?

Well, I'll assume you have the internet, so why don't you find out for us.

I tried but couldn't find any info on it.  I found that writing dual layer takes half as long, but didn't find anything on reading dual layer. 

Part of me makes me say well that obviously means that reading takes twice as long too! while another part says perhaps they don't list it because they're the same! and then another part tells me well they classify dual layer even if it's the same everywhere else! and then the voices start fighting and I don't know enough about this stuff to make a decision and my head hurts.

I want candy.

Bolded part doesn't make sense. Writing twice the amount will obviously take at least twice as long.

As far as reading is concerened, I haven't read anything about dual layer Blu Ray discs being slower, so I assume they aren't.

Whoops, twice as long.  Damn voices messing up my posting.

I didn't find anything either. Maybe someone else knows :/



Badassbab on 21 December 2009
Feylic said:
Badassbab said:
Feylic said:
Badassbab said:
I think the 360 version will probably have more compressed audio and video but that's about it. Also Blu Ray reads slower than DVD so duplicate files are used to combat this (as is mandatory installs).

This rumour about FF being purposely made worse so as to keep it parity between the systems is pure SDF type propaganda. Why on earth would they do that? Who has done that? There will always be small differences between the systems, they are different architectures and in multiplat face offs the 360 usually wins so if anything it should be the other way around.

About Bayonetta download file size disparity between PS3 and 360, well PS3 version is longer in some ways (to make up for the lack of the clock tower section).

What I want to know is how come the 360 allows one to download updates and games without having to install them? Does it install as it downloads? Why doesn't the PS3 do this? It's a right pain having to install after downloading.

Wrong, please do not spread this lie.

How is that a lie? Ok let me make it more clear. The 12x DVD drive in the 360 reads data faster than the 2 x Blu Ray drive in the PS3. Happy?

@ Twestern also.. (you really don't know this yet with all the threads there have been on it?)

 

Ok, let me try to explain this to you.. it's really quite simple. The bluray drive in the PS3 spins at a constant linear velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_linear_velocity), this means it can always read at the same speed. The read speed of a 2X bluray is 9MBps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Recording_speed).

Now, DVD drivers run with a constant angular velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_angular_velocity), which means the read speed of the disc varies with how far the disc is being read relative to the center, or edge of the disc. Information at the edge is read fast, while info at the center is read slower.

Next, the drive in the 360 can run up to 12X DVD speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware#DVD_storage), BUT most, if not all games for the 360 are made on dual layer DVD-9's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_3, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gears_of_war_2, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_effect, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_3, Just look at the summary thing on the right side of the page, it tells you the media format), which can only be read at a max speed of 8X.

The read speed of 8X dvd, as I said before, varies. It can go from a max of10.57MBps to a minimum of 4.36MBps, or 8X at the outer edge, to 3.3X at the inner edge. (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157, somemore stuff there)

Ok, so to summarize, PS3 reads at 9, 360 reads at 4.36 to 10.57. Depending on where the information is on the disc, the bluray drive in the PS3 can outperform the DVD drive in the 360, and vice verca. So the 360 can read faster than the PS3, but NOT always, and NOT by that much, and so simply stating that the PS3 has a slow drive or that bluray reads slower than dvd is completely wrong.

 

 

 

It's not completely wrong. Read the link I posted, it's got a great argument between 360 and PS3 fanboys on who's drive is faster and not just links to Wiki. http://www.maxconsole.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-65317.html

Some of the links I got off that heated debate.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek

http://reviews.cnet.com/consoles/microsoft-xbox-360-20gb/4864-10109_7-31355096.html?ctype=msgid&messageSiteID=9&messageID=1387700&cval=1387700

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157

http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11404 - Apparently the 2xBR is equivalent to 6.5xDVD

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=554672 -  Illegal firmware that allows the 360 discs to be read at factory pressed 12x read speed on DL.

 






Feylic on 21 December 2009
Badassbab said:
Feylic said:
Badassbab said:
Feylic said:
Badassbab said:
I think the 360 version will probably have more compressed audio and video but that's about it. Also Blu Ray reads slower than DVD so duplicate files are used to combat this (as is mandatory installs).

This rumour about FF being purposely made worse so as to keep it parity between the systems is pure SDF type propaganda. Why on earth would they do that? Who has done that? There will always be small differences between the systems, they are different architectures and in multiplat face offs the 360 usually wins so if anything it should be the other way around.

About Bayonetta download file size disparity between PS3 and 360, well PS3 version is longer in some ways (to make up for the lack of the clock tower section).

What I want to know is how come the 360 allows one to download updates and games without having to install them? Does it install as it downloads? Why doesn't the PS3 do this? It's a right pain having to install after downloading.

Wrong, please do not spread this lie.

How is that a lie? Ok let me make it more clear. The 12x DVD drive in the 360 reads data faster than the 2 x Blu Ray drive in the PS3. Happy?

@ Twestern also.. (you really don't know this yet with all the threads there have been on it?)

 

Ok, let me try to explain this to you.. it's really quite simple. The bluray drive in the PS3 spins at a constant linear velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_linear_velocity), this means it can always read at the same speed. The read speed of a 2X bluray is 9MBps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Recording_speed).

Now, DVD drivers run with a constant angular velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_angular_velocity), which means the read speed of the disc varies with how far the disc is being read relative to the center, or edge of the disc. Information at the edge is read fast, while info at the center is read slower.

Next, the drive in the 360 can run up to 12X DVD speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_hardware#DVD_storage), BUT most, if not all games for the 360 are made on dual layer DVD-9's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_3, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gears_of_war_2, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_effect, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forza_3, Just look at the summary thing on the right side of the page, it tells you the media format), which can only be read at a max speed of 8X.

The read speed of 8X dvd, as I said before, varies. It can go from a max of10.57MBps to a minimum of 4.36MBps, or 8X at the outer edge, to 3.3X at the inner edge. (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157, somemore stuff there)

Ok, so to summarize, PS3 reads at 9, 360 reads at 4.36 to 10.57. Depending on where the information is on the disc, the bluray drive in the PS3 can outperform the DVD drive in the 360, and vice verca. So the 360 can read faster than the PS3, but NOT always, and NOT by that much, and so simply stating that the PS3 has a slow drive or that bluray reads slower than dvd is completely wrong.

 

 

 

It's not completely wrong. Read the link I posted, it's got a great argument between 360 and PS3 fanboys on who's drive is faster and not just links to Wiki. http://www.maxconsole.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-65317.html

Some of the links I got off that heated debate.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek

http://reviews.cnet.com/consoles/microsoft-xbox-360-20gb/4864-10109_7-31355096.html?ctype=msgid&messageSiteID=9&messageID=1387700&cval=1387700

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157

http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11404 - Apparently the 2xBR is equivalent to 6.5xDVD

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=554672 -  Illegal firmware that allows the 360 discs to be read at factory pressed 12x read speed on DL.

 

No, it is completely wrong, as pretty much all your links also states.. the bluray drive can perform as good as, or faster than the dvd drive.

Bolded Part: While this is a good ROUGH estimate, you must still remember that the DVD drive will not always be reading at the same speed, so a 2X bluray drive would be equivalent to a 6.5X DVD reading at it's max speed, and it would also be equivalent to a much higher x (say 12) reading at it's slowest speed.



NightAntilli on 21 December 2009

@Feylic: That's why developers put the largest files on the outside edge of the disk.. And that's also why 99% of the multiplats have faster loading on the X360. And also, if you wanna argue like that, here:

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5399/12xdvdvsbdrs0cg.png

That graph shows that the minimum read speed is basically just a tad lower, and the maximum is way above it.. Yes, this is for 12x, since the X360 is capable of that. That does not mean all games use it, but if it's needed, they probably will. And again, even if they use 8x, the largest files are put on the outside part of the disk, and the menu files and stuff that doesn't need high read speeds are put on the inner edge. Because of this, 8x will have the advantage over 2x Blu-Ray in games.. Period.



Truth does not fear investigation

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Burning Typhoon on 21 December 2009
NKAJ said:
why would they dileberatly make the graphics worse on ps3 just so it could be equal to xbox360? graphics are ment to get better not worse

They did the same thing with Tekken 6...  So, of course, the arcade makes both versions look like crap, and the arcade version is based on PS3 hardware.

Anyway, I wish they'd stop gimping PS3 ports... they've got no problem leaving the graphics as-is when it's the 360 with the better looking version.  Oh well, I guess I could just stop buying even-numbered Tekken games..  But, as for this game, I'll need to wait and see what other people think before getting it.



Xoj on 21 December 2009
Burning Typhoon said:
NKAJ said:
why would they dileberatly make the graphics worse on ps3 just so it could be equal to xbox360? graphics are ment to get better not worse

They did the same thing with Tekken 6...  So, of course, the arcade makes both versions look like crap, and the arcade version is based on PS3 hardware.

Anyway, I wish they'd stop gimping PS3 ports... they've got no problem leaving the graphics as-is when it's the 360 with the better looking version.  Oh well, I guess I could just stop buying even-numbered Tekken games..  But, as for this game, I'll need to wait and see what other people think before getting it.

i can confirm this :/.



Andysw on 21 December 2009
nofingershaha said:
KillerMan said:
kowenicki said:
Bladeforce said:
in response to 360 v ps3 gta IV version and sizes, 360 is 6.4gb whilst ps3 is 4.3gb


didnt you get those the wrong way around?


Nowadays all X360 games are 6.8gb (game data limit of the X360 DVD). Maybe some launch games are smaller. Don't know about GTA IV on PS3 because PS3 is still unhackable so you can't find any PS3 games from torrent sites.

wasn't it 8.5gb on the 360 dvd?

No, likely be 6gb maximum. Microsoft has reserved 2gb of the dvd9 for security leaving developers with only 6gb of space for game data.



Feylic on 21 December 2009
NightAntilli said:
@Feylic: That's why developers put the largest files on the outside edge of the disk.. And that's also why 99% of the multiplats have faster loading on the X360. And also, if you wanna argue like that, here:

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5399/12xdvdvsbdrs0cg.png

That graph shows that the minimum read speed is basically just a tad lower, and the maximum is way above it.. Yes, this is for 12x, since the X360 is capable of that. That does not mean all games use it, but if it's needed, they probably will. And again, even if they use 8x, the largest files are put on the outside part of the disk, and the menu files and stuff that doesn't need high read speeds are put on the inner edge. Because of this, 8x will have the advantage over 2x Blu-Ray in games.. Period.

Yea, no kidding, thats called mastering, but the fact remains that not ALL of the information can be stored at the edge of the disc, and hence, it will not always be read faster.

As for the graph, like you said it's 12X so it's pretty much useless and but the part I bolded does not work. If the game is big enough, they will use a dual layer DVD and it will be 8X, they can't just decide it will run faster at this point, it's 8, the 12 no longer matters. Because of this, over the entire size of the disc, the read speeds are quite comparable between the PS3 and 360's respective drives. PERIOD.



HanzoTheRazor on 21 December 2009

The only people that will be buying it for the 360 are the ones that are fans of FF, own a 360 and have not yet prchaces a PS3.

I would not even consider getting it for my 360.



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