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Forums - Nintendo - Cel Shaded Link

tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:
tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:
It's just the description it's gotten over the years to distinguish the two different art styles.
Notice they're calling the realistic Zelda the 'mature' look, but not calling the cellshaded version an 'immature' one.

Also, the 'realistic style' Link is a very serious person. Cell shaded link has more cartoony facial expressions and jokes etc.

A description given to it by detractors of the style.  Calling it less mature is poisoning the well, no two ways around it.*  There is nothing more mature about realism vs. cel shading.  It's the same shit people pull with Mario, calling it kiddy.  Why is Mario kiddy?  Uh, uh, no guns or boobs!  Right, so there's no real reason.  It's the same thing with cell shading.  The humor in both WW and TP is the same, and while Link can be more expressive in WW thanks to the style, that's not just limited to funny expressions, but also those of anger, frustration, etc.  It's like the names used in political debates (e.g. people in favor of abortion call themselves pro choice, but their opposers call them anti-life).  There's no real substance behind such names, they are simply used because of their connotation and how they change people's view of something before a discussion can even begin.

 

 

*For those of you who've never heard of poisoning the well: Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a logical fallacy where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.

Name came from detractors of the style? I dunno...I mean, I love both styles and I have no problems calling one 'mature' and the other 'cell shaded'. I'm not sure there is another universally accepted comfortable word to describe it to be honest.

As for poisoning the well...I think the Zelda franchise is too well established to let a label like that dampen anything, and if at all, it'll be in the extreme minority. Well this is just my view anyway.

Really, you don't think "realistic" works for describing the TP style?  Cause that's kind of what you've been using interchangeably with "mature."

You don't see how calling one "mature" poisons the well?  Let me spell it out for you.  Calling one mature implies that the other is not mature, or at least, is not as mature.  So really, although they don't say anything about the WW style by calling the TP style mature, they imply a lot (it's just how pro-choice implies that the opposing group is anti-choice, and pro-life implies that their opposers are anti-life).  Along with lacking maturity in the video game world comes terms like "kiddie" and "casual."  These labels discourage people from defending WW, as it's now associated with terms they dislike, and if they try to defend it, they're also labeled as such. 

But even if we use the word 'realistic', some (maybe not you) would find the same arguement there as well (Calling it realistic would imply that the other is unrealistic, or not a 'real' game). Don't get me wrong I know where you are coming from, but at the end of the day we're just talking about the art style right? In your Mario example I don't think you can fault anyone for looking at it and thinking it has a 'kiddy' looking art style. Even diehard fans can say it looks kiddy on the surface but knows very well that it's not a kid game.
I think that's just an eventuality of the gaming world tagging something based on how they see it. In Zelda's case, it was of my view that everyone knows that the game is a teen/mature title that everyone can play, so even the names it got over the years (mature and cel-shaded, which isn't so bad in itself) would have minimal impact (the impact would really be on individuals that never played/heard of the franchise before). But hey...I'm just speculating and you could be totally spot on, which is why I have respect for what you have said. Just discussing.



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blunty51 said:
tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:
tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:
It's just the description it's gotten over the years to distinguish the two different art styles.
Notice they're calling the realistic Zelda the 'mature' look, but not calling the cellshaded version an 'immature' one.

Also, the 'realistic style' Link is a very serious person. Cell shaded link has more cartoony facial expressions and jokes etc.

A description given to it by detractors of the style.  Calling it less mature is poisoning the well, no two ways around it.*  There is nothing more mature about realism vs. cel shading.  It's the same shit people pull with Mario, calling it kiddy.  Why is Mario kiddy?  Uh, uh, no guns or boobs!  Right, so there's no real reason.  It's the same thing with cell shading.  The humor in both WW and TP is the same, and while Link can be more expressive in WW thanks to the style, that's not just limited to funny expressions, but also those of anger, frustration, etc.  It's like the names used in political debates (e.g. people in favor of abortion call themselves pro choice, but their opposers call them anti-life).  There's no real substance behind such names, they are simply used because of their connotation and how they change people's view of something before a discussion can even begin.

 

 

*For those of you who've never heard of poisoning the well: Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a logical fallacy where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.

Name came from detractors of the style? I dunno...I mean, I love both styles and I have no problems calling one 'mature' and the other 'cell shaded'. I'm not sure there is another universally accepted comfortable word to describe it to be honest.

As for poisoning the well...I think the Zelda franchise is too well established to let a label like that dampen anything, and if at all, it'll be in the extreme minority. Well this is just my view anyway.

Really, you don't think "realistic" works for describing the TP style?  Cause that's kind of what you've been using interchangeably with "mature."

You don't see how calling one "mature" poisons the well?  Let me spell it out for you.  Calling one mature implies that the other is not mature, or at least, is not as mature.  So really, although they don't say anything about the WW style by calling the TP style mature, they imply a lot (it's just how pro-choice implies that the opposing group is anti-choice, and pro-life implies that their opposers are anti-life).  Along with lacking maturity in the video game world comes terms like "kiddie" and "casual."  These labels discourage people from defending WW, as it's now associated with terms they dislike, and if they try to defend it, they're also labeled as such. 

But even if we use the word 'realistic', some (maybe not you) would find the same arguement there as well (Calling it realistic would imply that the other is unrealistic, or not a 'real' game). Don't get me wrong I know where you are coming from, but at the end of the day we're just talking about the art style right? In your Mario example I don't think you can fault anyone for looking at it and thinking it has a 'kiddy' looking art style. Even diehard fans can say it looks kiddy on the surface but knows very well that it's not a kid game.
I think that's just an eventuality of the gaming world tagging something based on how they see it. In Zelda's case, it was of my view that everyone knows that the game is a teen/mature title that everyone can play, so even the names it got over the years (mature and cel-shaded, which isn't so bad in itself) would have minimal impact (the impact would really be on individuals that never played/heard of the franchise before). But hey...I'm just speculating and you could be totally spot on, which is why I have respect for what you have said. Just discussing.

Wonderful strawman argument there.  I love how you created your own argument and defeated it.  You're clearly right, what was I thinking.  No, seriously, neither I nor any other logical person thinks TWW's artstyle is just a realistic as TP.  TWW clearly goes for a far more stylized world, where TP attempts to more closely resemble reality (that's not to say it's going for hyper-realism; it's got some style of it's own, but far less than TWW).  TP is objectively more realistic than TWW.  Again, that is an objective fact, and that's why you should use it to describe TP instead of "mature," a word loaded with unappropriate connotation.  To make any connection between the realism in a game's graphics and how much of a "real" game something is makes absolutely no sense.  Again, no logical person would ever make that connection.  You're just using twisted semantics to fit your argument.

What, exactly, is kidding looking about Mario?  Objectively explain that to me.  After you try and fail, I'll explain to you why it isn't. ;)



silverlunar777 said:
You Just have to look at my avy to know what i prefer ;)

Seriously speaking i LOVED the celshading style that was introduced in WW, it was special and unique, and i am surprised by some of you not liking Ganondorf, i still think he has the best design in WW, even though i didn't play it.

I was introduced to the Zelda games from the GBA, the first one i ever played was the LttP port, then i played (and introduced the style for the first time with) Minish Cap unlike most of you here.

And i just don't understand the "mature" looking Zelda games mentality, there was never a Zelda game released that looked "mature" or "realistic".
ALL THE ZELDA GAMES HAS AN ANIME/MANGA ART STYLE associated with them, where is "OoT/TP has a :realistic: look " people like to throw around coming from exactly???

Please look at TP Link and tell me he has a "realistic" design or art style..... He looks like a freaking manga design!!

I prefered Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time. Much prefer him without a beard.



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tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:

But even if we use the word 'realistic', some (maybe not you) would find the same arguement there as well (Calling it realistic would imply that the other is unrealistic, or not a 'real' game). Don't get me wrong I know where you are coming from, but at the end of the day we're just talking about the art style right? In your Mario example I don't think you can fault anyone for looking at it and thinking it has a 'kiddy' looking art style. Even diehard fans can say it looks kiddy on the surface but knows very well that it's not a kid game.
I think that's just an eventuality of the gaming world tagging something based on how they see it. In Zelda's case, it was of my view that everyone knows that the game is a teen/mature title that everyone can play, so even the names it got over the years (mature and cel-shaded, which isn't so bad in itself) would have minimal impact (the impact would really be on individuals that never played/heard of the franchise before). But hey...I'm just speculating and you could be totally spot on, which is why I have respect for what you have said. Just discussing.

Wonderful strawman argument there.  I love how you created your own argument and defeated it.  You're clearly right, what was I thinking.  No, seriously, neither I nor any other logical person thinks TWW's artstyle is just a realistic as TP.  TWW clearly goes for a far more stylized world, where TP attempts to more closely resemble reality (that's not to say it's going for hyper-realism; it's got some style of it's own, but far less than TWW).  TP is objectively more realistic than TWW.  Again, that is an objective fact, and that's why you should use it to describe TP instead of "mature," a word loaded with unappropriate connotation.  To make any connection between the realism in a game's graphics and how much of a "real" game something is makes absolutely no sense.  Again, no logical person would ever make that connection.  You're just using twisted semantics to fit your argument.

What, exactly, is kidding looking about Mario?  Objectively explain that to me.  After you try and fail, I'll explain to you why it isn't. ;)

First off, I was never arguing. It was just a discussion on how I can see how ppl get to the point of calling it mature or whatever. I was being quite subjective, I never insulted and I never claimed to be the best thing since sliced bread. I thought we were on the same page of having an adult conversation but why did you have to make it seem like some fanboy arguement? The least we could have done was agree to disagree. Now I can't help but feel like I've wasted my time here. Feel free to have the last word.



blunty51 said:
tarheel91 said:
blunty51 said:

But even if we use the word 'realistic', some (maybe not you) would find the same arguement there as well (Calling it realistic would imply that the other is unrealistic, or not a 'real' game). Don't get me wrong I know where you are coming from, but at the end of the day we're just talking about the art style right? In your Mario example I don't think you can fault anyone for looking at it and thinking it has a 'kiddy' looking art style. Even diehard fans can say it looks kiddy on the surface but knows very well that it's not a kid game.
I think that's just an eventuality of the gaming world tagging something based on how they see it. In Zelda's case, it was of my view that everyone knows that the game is a teen/mature title that everyone can play, so even the names it got over the years (mature and cel-shaded, which isn't so bad in itself) would have minimal impact (the impact would really be on individuals that never played/heard of the franchise before). But hey...I'm just speculating and you could be totally spot on, which is why I have respect for what you have said. Just discussing.

Wonderful strawman argument there.  I love how you created your own argument and defeated it.  You're clearly right, what was I thinking.  No, seriously, neither I nor any other logical person thinks TWW's artstyle is just a realistic as TP.  TWW clearly goes for a far more stylized world, where TP attempts to more closely resemble reality (that's not to say it's going for hyper-realism; it's got some style of it's own, but far less than TWW).  TP is objectively more realistic than TWW.  Again, that is an objective fact, and that's why you should use it to describe TP instead of "mature," a word loaded with unappropriate connotation.  To make any connection between the realism in a game's graphics and how much of a "real" game something is makes absolutely no sense.  Again, no logical person would ever make that connection.  You're just using twisted semantics to fit your argument.

What, exactly, is kidding looking about Mario?  Objectively explain that to me.  After you try and fail, I'll explain to you why it isn't. ;)

First off, I was never arguing. It was just a discussion on how I can see how ppl get to the point of calling it mature or whatever. I was being quite subjective, I never insulted and I never claimed to be the best thing since sliced bread. I thought we were on the same page of having an adult conversation but why did you have to make it seem like some fanboy arguement? The least we could have done was agree to disagree. Now I can't help but feel like I've wasted my time here. Feel free to have the last word.

Strawman argument is a term.  I wasn't insinuating that this discussion was heated or whatever.  Look it up.  Argument also isn't limited to just meaning a heated discussion between two people.  Argument is synonymous with the case a person is making.  "My argument is that blah blah blah."  I never insulted you or said you insulted me?  I don't see how this is turning into a fanboy argument.  It looks pretty clean on both sides to me.  The reason I asked you to objectively prove to me what you're saying is because you're speaking about them as if they're generally accepted facts.  Generally accepted facts have to be objectively true.  That's simply not the case with your claims.

I'll take your lack of an actual reply (in terms of the discussion we're hacing) to indicate that you can't come up with a rebuttal and are ackwnoledging you were wrong in claiming Mario's style is kiddy and that TP is somehow more mature-looking than TWW.

Oh and by the way, your last reply was an Ad hominem fallacy.



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I love the graphics, the effects are beautiful...