By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - PC Discussion - Contoller/Console better for FPS than KB+Mouse/PC?!?

JaggedSac on 16 December 2009
cAPSLOCK said:
JaggedSac said:

If having to fucking strafe, jump, and turn in order to compete, then fuck that.  How is that enjoyable?  Sure the Harlem Globe Trotters can do some cool fucking shit in their style of basketball, but they don't allow that shit in professional games.  Why?  Because the game of basketball was designed a certain way and was meant to be played a certain way.  You might watch a video of the Harlem Globe Trotters and think, "Hey these guys are better than NBA players."  But the reality is that they probably are not as good as NBA players when playing the game how it was intended.  What strafe jumping did was FORCE gamers to play in a way that was not intended(or they would get beat by people who did do it), and in a way(in my opinion) that is not as fun.  And that is what gaming is all about, FUN.  No one wants to play against exploiters and glitchers.

Uh, pretty sure if you can strafe jump and rocket jump you have the basics pretty down pat, that's generally the point: the "intended" version of Q3 was too easy. It's a lot easier to aim and control yourself at 10 mph than 50. And the game of basketball changed a lot for the enjoyment of everyone, Kareem Abdul Jabar and Wilt the Stilt caused a lot of rule changes because they dominated so heavy-handed. Think of Vo0 as Wilt Chamberlain, not a Harlem Globetrotter.

And yes, there were a lot of post release patches and mods that opened up those trick jumping avenues even more--so it was embraced. Hell Carmack thought CPMA mod was a great idea, so not only did he not do anything to stop all those sploits with vanilla Q3, he encouraged people to make more!

We seem to be making the same point on this one.  Someone is able to do something the designers didn't anticipate, changes are made to bring it back to stable state. It is up to the designers to really make that call.  Carmack decided against dropping the hammer down.

But I need to make a point on Q3 being too easy.  Once both players are masters of aiming and shooting, it then should become an excersice of using the environments and weaponry placements to get the upper hand, not exploits.  Perhaps I am a stickler for rules though.



Around the Network
cAPSLOCK on 16 December 2009
SeriousWB said:
Reasonable said:
I would like to see a design that combined a Nunchuck with something like a mouse - the Wiimote is no use as while reasonably accurate the thing has too much weight over time to hold and the wobble factor isn't too good.

I disagree about having a nunchuck type tool with a mouse, because you would lose close access to the amount of buttons for hotkeys a keyboard provides.

Wii is a good FPS box (2nd to computer imho), but yeah I'd definitely like a lot more buttons on the nunchuck if it were a PC peripheral. The wobble factor for the wiimote isn't there if you rest your arm on your leg or the arm of a chair. I never had any wobble on Prime 3 at all.



3rd Party Wall of Shame

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

JaggedSac on 16 December 2009
Reasonable said:
I think folks need to decide the criteria they're arguing here - i.e. is this a pure mechanical input device comparison devoid from any element of gameplay, preference or trends or is this about what tools work well for what job?

For example, if the latter, then JaggedSAC is correct, both input methods are used with games and experiences tailored to them - i.e. gamepad designed for ease of use while sitting in a chair or the like in front of a TV, with game speed and movement designed for it or sitting at a desk with a K&M playing a game with speed and movement designed for it and it's a bit pointless to argue further.

If the former then the K&M mechanically is more accurate and easier to use to aim/move a reticule accurately (forget in a game, just imagine some sort of screen test with small boxes on the screen you have to highlight in the shortest time) however, while the mouse is superb for the job the keyboard is limiting in design and doesn't fit your hand as well as a gamepad - but nonetheless a gamepad won't match it for speed/timing response in a neutral no gaming sense.

Clearly, as I and others have stated, it you wanted the absolute best movement/aiming mechanical input then you'd need keep the mouse but ditch the keyboard and use something like the Nunchuck instead to get better movement and easier fit to the hand.

In the end, while I understand that mechanically the K&M does have an edge in empirical terms, I think JaggedSAC is correct when he argues that, factoring in game design, environment, etc. it's better to simply see them as two tools that work well for their given environment.

I would like to see a design that combined a Nunchuck with something like a mouse - the Wiimote is no use as while reasonably accurate the thing has too much weight over time to hold and the wobble factor isn't too good.

I agree with this post.



CommonMan on 16 December 2009
Reasonable said:
I think folks need to decide the criteria they're arguing here - i.e. is this a pure mechanical input device comparison devoid from any element of gameplay, preference or trends or is this about what tools work well for what job?

For example, if the latter, then JaggedSAC is correct, both input methods are used with games and experiences tailored to them - i.e. gamepad designed for ease of use while sitting in a chair or the like in front of a TV, with game speed and movement designed for it or sitting at a desk with a K&M playing a game with speed and movement designed for it and it's a bit pointless to argue further.

If the former then the K&M mechanically is more accurate and easier to use to aim/move a reticule accurately (forget in a game, just imagine some sort of screen test with small boxes on the screen you have to highlight in the shortest time) however, while the mouse is superb for the job the keyboard is limiting in design and doesn't fit your hand as well as a gamepad - but nonetheless a gamepad won't match it for speed/timing response in a neutral no gaming sense.

Clearly, as I and others have stated, it you wanted the absolute best movement/aiming mechanical input then you'd need keep the mouse but ditch the keyboard and use something like the Nunchuck instead to get better movement and easier fit to the hand.

In the end, while I understand that mechanically the K&M does have an edge in empirical terms, I think JaggedSAC is correct when he argues that, factoring in game design, environment, etc. it's better to simply see them as two tools that work well for their given environment.

I would like to see a design that combined a Nunchuck with something like a mouse - the Wiimote is no use as while reasonably accurate the thing has too much weight over time to hold and the wobble factor isn't too good.


There is no possible way for me to agree more with everything you said here, even the part about the Wii-mote.



No one in the world ever gets what they want, and that is beautiful.

cAPSLOCK on 16 December 2009
JaggedSac said:
cAPSLOCK said:
JaggedSac said:

If having to fucking strafe, jump, and turn in order to compete, then fuck that.  How is that enjoyable?  Sure the Harlem Globe Trotters can do some cool fucking shit in their style of basketball, but they don't allow that shit in professional games.  Why?  Because the game of basketball was designed a certain way and was meant to be played a certain way.  You might watch a video of the Harlem Globe Trotters and think, "Hey these guys are better than NBA players."  But the reality is that they probably are not as good as NBA players when playing the game how it was intended.  What strafe jumping did was FORCE gamers to play in a way that was not intended(or they would get beat by people who did do it), and in a way(in my opinion) that is not as fun.  And that is what gaming is all about, FUN.  No one wants to play against exploiters and glitchers.

Uh, pretty sure if you can strafe jump and rocket jump you have the basics pretty down pat, that's generally the point: the "intended" version of Q3 was too easy. It's a lot easier to aim and control yourself at 10 mph than 50. And the game of basketball changed a lot for the enjoyment of everyone, Kareem Abdul Jabar and Wilt the Stilt caused a lot of rule changes because they dominated so heavy-handed. Think of Vo0 as Wilt Chamberlain, not a Harlem Globetrotter.

And yes, there were a lot of post release patches and mods that opened up those trick jumping avenues even more--so it was embraced. Hell Carmack thought CPMA mod was a great idea, so not only did he not do anything to stop all those sploits with vanilla Q3, he encouraged people to make more!

We seem to be making the same point on this one.  Someone is able to do something the designers didn't anticipate, changes are made to bring it back to stable state. It is up to the designers to really make that call.  Carmack decided against dropping the hammer down.

But I need to make a point on Q3 being too easy.  Once both players are masters of aiming and shooting, it then should become an excersice of using the environments and weaponry placements to get the upper hand, not exploits.  Perhaps I am a stickler for rules though.

I have no problems with rules, sorry if it came off so harsh. Sometimes you just have you unload, especially when you're accused of being a "baby gamer" or "too easy" due to your platform of choice. You can probably imagine it feels nice to come out guns blazing on a particular topic when the tables are turned.

Aiming and shooting wasn't really the primary advantage of Quake 3 at high end play, it was a lot more about tempo control and map manipulation. Do be able to do that you needed speed, more of it than the other guy and sometimes you were just blindly running your route.  Think of it kind of like those games where you control a checkpoint (like battlefield games), only you have about 5 or 6 points on a given map to control and you're doing it by yourself.

The most impressive thing in my eyes in that Vo0 vid isn't so much his running/jumping/shooting, but if you look at the score at the bottom, it's like 30-1 or 20-2 or so. At the top end (hell even the mid-level Q3) everyone moves and shoots like that, but controlling the tempo and holding down the whole map like that is a whole other level. There's a whole layer of strategy most people never saw in Q3 and now that it's a dead game sadly will probably never know.



3rd Party Wall of Shame

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

Around the Network
Xoj on 16 December 2009
nightsurge said:
Xoj said:
PS3 have keyboard and mouse support.

even UT3 have it

Name 2 PS3 games that support Mouse and Keyboard...  UT3 and..... ?? That's what I thought.

@the guy that uses KB+M on 360.  You got ripped off.  The adapter only costs $75 on eBay.  I've considered doing it, but I can't stand the keyboard for movement.  Controller dominates in that respect.

even kz2 can use it =).

but of course it needs custom one for that.

those are cheap since ps3 support tons of USB and bluetooth periferals.

 

everything it's in the SKU though, its up to developers to use, many don't because it's seen as advance to some people.

that only UT3 use SKU keyboard+mouse it's because they don't think that and took the time to implemented it.



Senlis on 16 December 2009
Reasonable said:
I think folks need to decide the criteria they're arguing here - i.e. is this a pure mechanical input device comparison devoid from any element of gameplay, preference or trends or is this about what tools work well for what job?

For example, if the latter, then JaggedSAC is correct, both input methods are used with games and experiences tailored to them - i.e. gamepad designed for ease of use while sitting in a chair or the like in front of a TV, with game speed and movement designed for it or sitting at a desk with a K&M playing a game with speed and movement designed for it and it's a bit pointless to argue further.

If the former then the K&M mechanically is more accurate and easier to use to aim/move a reticule accurately (forget in a game, just imagine some sort of screen test with small boxes on the screen you have to highlight in the shortest time) however, while the mouse is superb for the job the keyboard is limiting in design and doesn't fit your hand as well as a gamepad - but nonetheless a gamepad won't match it for speed/timing response in a neutral no gaming sense.

Clearly, as I and others have stated, it you wanted the absolute best movement/aiming mechanical input then you'd need keep the mouse but ditch the keyboard and use something like the Nunchuck instead to get better movement and easier fit to the hand.

In the end, while I understand that mechanically the K&M does have an edge in empirical terms, I think JaggedSAC is correct when he argues that, factoring in game design, environment, etc. it's better to simply see them as two tools that work well for their given environment.

I would like to see a design that combined a Nunchuck with something like a mouse - the Wiimote is no use as while reasonably accurate the thing has too much weight over time to hold and the wobble factor isn't too good.

Well, I don't find sitting in my computer chair any more or less confortable then sitting on my couch in front of the TV.  In fact, I used to have my computer connected to my LED TV and ended up moving it back to my monitor.

Replacing the KBM with a nunchuck would severily liimit functionality.  One of the major benefits of the KBM is the number of buttons you have.  In L4D2, if I need to pull out my pipe bomb in an action packed survival match, the easiest way is to hit the '3' button.  Pressing the up or down weapon change buttons on a controller is akward, and changes behavior depending on how many weapons/items you have.

Doesn't fit your hand well? Maybe you should get a better keyboard and mouse.  My mouse molds to my hand and my other hand rests on the keyboard at a very confortable angle.  Yes, a joystick does fit your hand better, but it is like fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

People seem obsessed with digital movement when it comes to forward/backwards/strafing movement.  I don't see the problem with analog.  I see pressing a button much faster than moving a joystick, and never have a problem with sensitivity.  If I want to move slowly, I am usually crouching to take advantage of increased accuracy (as most games feature this).

I do play some shooting games on the console.  They are usefull when I have people over at my house and we want to play local multiplayer.




 

cAPSLOCK on 16 December 2009

Is there a left handed version of that? I got a PS3 on the way and I'd like to pick one up.



3rd Party Wall of Shame

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

thetonestarr on 16 December 2009

What? You people play with your hands? What the heck? That's cheating! You're supposed to use your TOES to control! It's WAY harder that way!



 SW-5120-1900-6153

cAPSLOCK on 16 December 2009
thetonestarr said:
What? You people play with your hands? What the heck? That's cheating! You're supposed to use your TOES to control! It's WAY harder that way!

Normally I'd describe a game like that as "gay"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rW8lDYOJUc



3rd Party Wall of Shame

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036