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Forums - PC - All of Star Wars: The Old Republic classes have been revealed

vlad321 on 01 December 2009
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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Kenryoku_Maxis on 01 December 2009
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Really....hardly ever is the 'highest rated' games the best games out there.

And I don't know why we're arguing about this.  KOTOR is a fun and good game.  Its just simply not going to be everyones favorite Star Wars game.  Nor did it break any new ground in its genre.  What it DID do however was establish a good, solid RPG and adventure model for the Star Wars universe which laid the foundation for a series.  Which we are now seeing turn into a pretty awesome MMO that looks to actually be innovating the MMO genre.

So while KOTOR may not have innovated western RPGs and may not be the best Star Wars game to most, it may have set the foundation for one of the most innovative MMOs and Star Wars series.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

xbebop on 01 December 2009
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 

And? Is more always better? The White Album isn't as musically complex as, say, Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz, but it would be considered by most people the better album.

Bioware sacrificed complexity for simplicity, and for me it worked. The cinematic(for the time) real-timeish combat really drew me into the game. Also, what would have been the point of more feats/abilities in that system? You would end up with many more completely useless abilities than there already were(kill droid force power, anyone?). There were grenades, shields, stims, and plenty of attacks/buffs. While the combat isn't exactly riveting for me now(though I've played the game through about 6-7 times), I still enjoy it. What's really great about KOTOR is the story. Yes, yes, I know, "go read a book if you want a story." You know what? Most books don't have a story that is this good. Considering you're not a genius, you'll never see the plot twist coming. The game had some of the best characters in any video game, ever, for example: Revan, HK-47, Jollee, and Canderous. The game also was of a good length(I think my first playthrough was at nearly 40 hours), and the side quests were very enjoyable. FOr example, the court case on Manaan, the murder on Dantooine, the Matalle family crisis on Dantooine, the Genoharadan quest line, the bounties on Taris, etc.

Also, the modding community is great.



vlad321 on 01 December 2009
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 

And? Is more always better? The White Album isn't as musically complex as, say, Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz, but it would be considered by most people the better album.

Bioware sacrificed complexity for simplicity, and for me it worked. The cinematic(for the time) real-timeish combat really drew me into the game. Also, what would have been the point of more feats/abilities in that system? You would end up with many more completely useless abilities than there already were(kill droid force power, anyone?). There were grenades, shields, stims, and plenty of attacks/buffs. While the combat isn't exactly riveting for me now(though I've played the game through about 6-7 times), I still enjoy it. What's really great about KOTOR is the story. Yes, yes, I know, "go read a book if you want a story." You know what? Most books don't have a story that is this good. Considering you're not a genius, you'll never see the plot twist coming. The game had some of the best characters in any video game, ever, for example: Revan, HK-47, Jollee, and Canderous. The game also was of a good length(I think my first playthrough was at nearly 40 hours), and the side quests were very enjoyable. FOr example, the court case on Manaan, the murder on Dantooine, the Matalle family crisis on Dantooine, the Genoharadan quest line, the bounties on Taris, etc.

Also, the modding community is great.

You know the cinematic combat was done before too in their previous games, it wasn't as refined but since it was several years earlier that makes sense. Also in their previous games all abilities had some use. Also yes, go read a book or watch a movie, I can list you FAR more books/movies that top any video game story than all genres of games combined. Also I did see the plot twist, you have to be an idiot NOT to see it... I think the only way easier for people to see it coming was if that jedi chick left some notes around stating her purposes about the apprehension.  Ultimately as stated earlier, it didn't break any new ground, if anything it made the already laid out ground more bare, it was stoll really good, just not the best at all.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

xbebop on 01 December 2009
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 

And? Is more always better? The White Album isn't as musically complex as, say, Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz, but it would be considered by most people the better album.

Bioware sacrificed complexity for simplicity, and for me it worked. The cinematic(for the time) real-timeish combat really drew me into the game. Also, what would have been the point of more feats/abilities in that system? You would end up with many more completely useless abilities than there already were(kill droid force power, anyone?). There were grenades, shields, stims, and plenty of attacks/buffs. While the combat isn't exactly riveting for me now(though I've played the game through about 6-7 times), I still enjoy it. What's really great about KOTOR is the story. Yes, yes, I know, "go read a book if you want a story." You know what? Most books don't have a story that is this good. Considering you're not a genius, you'll never see the plot twist coming. The game had some of the best characters in any video game, ever, for example: Revan, HK-47, Jollee, and Canderous. The game also was of a good length(I think my first playthrough was at nearly 40 hours), and the side quests were very enjoyable. FOr example, the court case on Manaan, the murder on Dantooine, the Matalle family crisis on Dantooine, the Genoharadan quest line, the bounties on Taris, etc.

Also, the modding community is great.

You know the cinematic combat was done before too in their previous games, it wasn't as refined but since it was several years earlier that makes sense. Also in their previous games all abilities had some use. Also yes, go read a book or watch a movie, I can list you FAR more books/movies that top any video game story than all genres of games combined. Also I did see the plot twist, you have to be an idiot NOT to see it... I think the only way easier for people to see it coming was if that jedi chick left some notes around stating her purposes about the apprehension.  Ultimately as stated earlier, it didn't break any new ground, if anything it made the already laid out ground more bare, it was stoll really good, just not the best at all.

I had the plot twist spoiled by a jackass friend before I ever played the game, so I'm going off of other forum goers' opinions for that part. Also, I can list quite a few books with better stories as well, but I can also list a lot with worse stories.



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Kenryoku_Maxis on 01 December 2009
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 

And? Is more always better? The White Album isn't as musically complex as, say, Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz, but it would be considered by most people the better album.

Bioware sacrificed complexity for simplicity, and for me it worked. The cinematic(for the time) real-timeish combat really drew me into the game. Also, what would have been the point of more feats/abilities in that system? You would end up with many more completely useless abilities than there already were(kill droid force power, anyone?). There were grenades, shields, stims, and plenty of attacks/buffs. While the combat isn't exactly riveting for me now(though I've played the game through about 6-7 times), I still enjoy it. What's really great about KOTOR is the story. Yes, yes, I know, "go read a book if you want a story." You know what? Most books don't have a story that is this good. Considering you're not a genius, you'll never see the plot twist coming. The game had some of the best characters in any video game, ever, for example: Revan, HK-47, Jollee, and Canderous. The game also was of a good length(I think my first playthrough was at nearly 40 hours), and the side quests were very enjoyable. FOr example, the court case on Manaan, the murder on Dantooine, the Matalle family crisis on Dantooine, the Genoharadan quest line, the bounties on Taris, etc.

Also, the modding community is great.

Frankly, the story was the most lackluster part of the game in my opinion.  And, as I'm sure you have seen, making all those various choices in text (which took sometimes up to 30 minutes of sitting through dialogue) didn't change the main story.  Only certain side plots, opened up a new opportunity to seek out a new side quest (bounties/trials/etc) or kept you from obtaining new gear.

The story wasn't all that riveting and at times, I'd liked to have passed up all that dialogue.  Especially the untold number of times Carth or Bastila interrupts you to whine about their personal problems.  Or the literal hour you have to sit through the Jedi Council scolding you about how you're probably going to turn to the dark side, but you're the 'chosen one' so there's nothing that can be done and you're the only one they can trust to get the job done (45-60 minutes of dialogue that could have been cut down to about 5-10).

Frankly, the only interesting story points were, as you said, the side quests.  And the most interesting characters were the secondary characters, such as Jolee, HK-47 and T3-M4.  I think it says something when 2 of the best 'characters' in the game are droids...

It also doesn't help that 'Lord Malak' had the whole Sephiroth factor going on.  And you're just a puppet doing everyones bidding and being kept in the dark for 3/4 the game.  None of this is grounds for an epic story, but you know, it doesn't have to be.  Because one, its Star Wars (the source material isn't exactly a well written, epic space Odyssey itself).  And two, because most of the games storyline focuses on trying to set up game triggers and situations, not being an epic story.

In any event, as I said, there's no point in arguing over this.  The point isn't whether KOTOR was the best game ever or even if it had a good story.  The point is that it was a fun game that established a good base game engine.  And The Old Republic seems to be expanding on that 100 fold.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

LeongJinx on 02 December 2009
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 


So? Dragon Age: Origins has 3 base classes. Does that mean its "dumbed down?"

Super Mario Bros. is "dumbed down" (read: simplistic) by todays standards. Doe that make it any less great or important?

How about some empirical evidence that demonstrates that having 3 base classes makes a game inherently worse?



Currently own: PC (duh), SNES, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance, PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP.

 

xbebop on 02 December 2009
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
xbebop said:
vlad321 said:
LeongJinx said:

You don't just get to disqualify a game because you don't like it >> To me, KOTOR 1&2 are the best Star Wars games ever.

As for SWTOR, i can't wait. Imperial Agent looks really cool, cause i love assassin like characters. Sith Warrior would be fun though too.

You can empiracally show that KOTOR is more dumbed down that RPGS at the time. Meanwhile using the same empirical evidence you can show that TIE Fighter and Jedi Knight were actually groundbreaking.

Ooooh, empirical evidence...

http://www.bioware.com/games/knights_old_republic/awards/

 

Yes, and GTA4 also tops metacritic. Come back when you bring ACTUAL empirical evidence. But I still love KOTOR, just apparently no as much as everyone else....

Example:

Previous RPGs had far more than the base 3 classes KOTOR had

Previous RPGs had far more spells/skills/feats tha KOTOR

 

And? Is more always better? The White Album isn't as musically complex as, say, Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz, but it would be considered by most people the better album.

Bioware sacrificed complexity for simplicity, and for me it worked. The cinematic(for the time) real-timeish combat really drew me into the game. Also, what would have been the point of more feats/abilities in that system? You would end up with many more completely useless abilities than there already were(kill droid force power, anyone?). There were grenades, shields, stims, and plenty of attacks/buffs. While the combat isn't exactly riveting for me now(though I've played the game through about 6-7 times), I still enjoy it. What's really great about KOTOR is the story. Yes, yes, I know, "go read a book if you want a story." You know what? Most books don't have a story that is this good. Considering you're not a genius, you'll never see the plot twist coming. The game had some of the best characters in any video game, ever, for example: Revan, HK-47, Jollee, and Canderous. The game also was of a good length(I think my first playthrough was at nearly 40 hours), and the side quests were very enjoyable. FOr example, the court case on Manaan, the murder on Dantooine, the Matalle family crisis on Dantooine, the Genoharadan quest line, the bounties on Taris, etc.

Also, the modding community is great.

Frankly, the story was the most lackluster part of the game in my opinion.  And, as I'm sure you have seen, making all those various choices in text (which took sometimes up to 30 minutes of sitting through dialogue) didn't change the main story.  Only certain side plots, opened up a new opportunity to seek out a new side quest (bounties/trials/etc) or kept you from obtaining new gear.

The story wasn't all that riveting and at times, I'd liked to have passed up all that dialogue.  Especially the untold number of times Carth or Bastila interrupts you to whine about their personal problems.  Or the literal hour you have to sit through the Jedi Council scolding you about how you're probably going to turn to the dark side, but you're the 'chosen one' so there's nothing that can be done and you're the only one they can trust to get the job done (45-60 minutes of dialogue that could have been cut down to about 5-10).

Frankly, the only interesting story points were, as you said, the side quests.  And the most interesting characters were the secondary characters, such as Jolee, HK-47 and T3-M4.  I think it says something when 2 of the best 'characters' in the game are droids...

It also doesn't help that 'Lord Malak' had the whole Sephiroth factor going on.  And you're just a puppet doing everyones bidding and being kept in the dark for 3/4 the game.  None of this is grounds for an epic story, but you know, it doesn't have to be.  Because one, its Star Wars (the source material isn't exactly a well written, epic space Odyssey itself).  And two, because most of the games storyline focuses on trying to set up game triggers and situations, not being an epic story.

In any event, as I said, there's no point in arguing over this.  The point isn't whether KOTOR was the best game ever or even if it had a good story.  The point is that it was a fun game that established a good base game engine.  And The Old Republic seems to be expanding on that 100 fold.

Obviously, Bioware's storytelling didn't work for you. It did work for me, though. Maybe it's because I take games less seriously, who knows?

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to experience TOR when it comes out next year, but I'll be picking it up when I get the chance(I'm going to be studying abroad in Japan). The game loos far more excing than WoW, and my Star Wars fanboyism will probably lead me to thinking that it's the greatest game ever made(although it most likely won't be).



Kenryoku_Maxis on 02 December 2009
xbebop said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Frankly, the story was the most lackluster part of the game in my opinion.  And, as I'm sure you have seen, making all those various choices in text (which took sometimes up to 30 minutes of sitting through dialogue) didn't change the main story.  Only certain side plots, opened up a new opportunity to seek out a new side quest (bounties/trials/etc) or kept you from obtaining new gear.

The story wasn't all that riveting and at times, I'd liked to have passed up all that dialogue.  Especially the untold number of times Carth or Bastila interrupts you to whine about their personal problems.  Or the literal hour you have to sit through the Jedi Council scolding you about how you're probably going to turn to the dark side, but you're the 'chosen one' so there's nothing that can be done and you're the only one they can trust to get the job done (45-60 minutes of dialogue that could have been cut down to about 5-10).

Frankly, the only interesting story points were, as you said, the side quests.  And the most interesting characters were the secondary characters, such as Jolee, HK-47 and T3-M4.  I think it says something when 2 of the best 'characters' in the game are droids...

It also doesn't help that 'Lord Malak' had the whole Sephiroth factor going on.  And you're just a puppet doing everyones bidding and being kept in the dark for 3/4 the game.  None of this is grounds for an epic story, but you know, it doesn't have to be.  Because one, its Star Wars (the source material isn't exactly a well written, epic space Odyssey itself).  And two, because most of the games storyline focuses on trying to set up game triggers and situations, not being an epic story.

In any event, as I said, there's no point in arguing over this.  The point isn't whether KOTOR was the best game ever or even if it had a good story.  The point is that it was a fun game that established a good base game engine.  And The Old Republic seems to be expanding on that 100 fold.

Obviously, Bioware's storytelling didn't work for you. It did work for me, though. Maybe it's because I take games less seriously, who knows?

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to experience TOR when it comes out next year, but I'll be picking it up when I get the chance(I'm going to be studying abroad in Japan). The game loos far more excing than WoW, and my Star Wars fanboyism will probably lead me to thinking that it's the greatest game ever made(although it most likely won't be).

Uh...I think that might be a little backwards on the serious part.

But in any event, they haven't set a date for the game.  I would be VERY surprised if the game got released next year.  I'm guessing mid to late 2011 at the very earliest.  Like Diablo III, Old Republic is trying to do some heavy content based design work and will probably take years to develop just because of all the environments, flashpoints and voicework.  Plus beta testing.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

xbebop on 02 December 2009
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
xbebop said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Frankly, the story was the most lackluster part of the game in my opinion.  And, as I'm sure you have seen, making all those various choices in text (which took sometimes up to 30 minutes of sitting through dialogue) didn't change the main story.  Only certain side plots, opened up a new opportunity to seek out a new side quest (bounties/trials/etc) or kept you from obtaining new gear.

The story wasn't all that riveting and at times, I'd liked to have passed up all that dialogue.  Especially the untold number of times Carth or Bastila interrupts you to whine about their personal problems.  Or the literal hour you have to sit through the Jedi Council scolding you about how you're probably going to turn to the dark side, but you're the 'chosen one' so there's nothing that can be done and you're the only one they can trust to get the job done (45-60 minutes of dialogue that could have been cut down to about 5-10).

Frankly, the only interesting story points were, as you said, the side quests.  And the most interesting characters were the secondary characters, such as Jolee, HK-47 and T3-M4.  I think it says something when 2 of the best 'characters' in the game are droids...

It also doesn't help that 'Lord Malak' had the whole Sephiroth factor going on.  And you're just a puppet doing everyones bidding and being kept in the dark for 3/4 the game.  None of this is grounds for an epic story, but you know, it doesn't have to be.  Because one, its Star Wars (the source material isn't exactly a well written, epic space Odyssey itself).  And two, because most of the games storyline focuses on trying to set up game triggers and situations, not being an epic story.

In any event, as I said, there's no point in arguing over this.  The point isn't whether KOTOR was the best game ever or even if it had a good story.  The point is that it was a fun game that established a good base game engine.  And The Old Republic seems to be expanding on that 100 fold.

Obviously, Bioware's storytelling didn't work for you. It did work for me, though. Maybe it's because I take games less seriously, who knows?

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to experience TOR when it comes out next year, but I'll be picking it up when I get the chance(I'm going to be studying abroad in Japan). The game loos far more excing than WoW, and my Star Wars fanboyism will probably lead me to thinking that it's the greatest game ever made(although it most likely won't be).

Uh...I think that might be a little backwards on the serious part.

But in any event, they haven't set a date for the game.  I would be VERY surprised if the game got released next year.  I'm guessing mid to late 2011 at the very earliest.  Like Diablo III, Old Republic is trying to do some heavy content based design work and will probably take years to develop just because of all the environments, flashpoints and voicework.  Plus beta testing.

Eh, you're right. I ragequit a lot of games when I'm sucking it up. lol