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Forums - Microsoft - Datel suing Microsoft over Max Memory card lockout

ironman on 26 November 2009
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:

this is the part that is most likely illegal. Lol it would be so much easier to explain if you knew norwegian:p And yes they havent been found guilty yet:P but they most likely will, if the "investigators" statements are anything to go by.

Can you give me a link to the law they are breaking? Because it is a screwed up law if what you are saying is true (and I suspect MS is still within the confines of it)

Anyway, typos happen, don't hold it against me *cries*

hehe "forbrukerkjøpsloven" and "avtaleloven", let me guess that didnt help did it:p? Anyway, they are not convicted yet:P so we will just have to wait and see:P. And even if they are, the fine would be by no means a threat to MS:p

So, where is the law that MS is supposibly breaking by updating their firmware to exclude memory cards over 512 MB?

So far your mod chip analogy fails because it is not against any laws to use a mod chip, it is not against any laws to flash it with linux. It is illegal to flash it with modifies MS firmware (in the US) and it is against the terms of use for XBL. If you agree tio the terms of use, then your console gets banned from XBL because of the mod chip, well, you agreed to let MS do that to you. And guess what? you can mod your console and not go onto XBL and guess what, nobody is going to stop you from using your 360 the way you want to.

And your cell phone analogy fails because cellphone firmware and game console firmware are very differant animals. The way in which both can be utilized is very different.

So would you care to explain yourself further? or do you admit defeat?

Let just get one thing clear: They ARE being investegated for breaking the law. So can we at least agree that what they are doing might not be legal according to Norwegian law??? "forbrukerkjøpsloven" as i refered to earlier is a law meant to protect the best interest of the seller and the customer. Basically i own what i buy, i get what i pay for ect. When i purchase a product, i've established a verbal contract with the salesman/and the maker of the product. "avtaleloven" is a law about contracts ect. According to it a one-sided change in the contract cant be done without justified cause.

Let's get something straight, Just because MS is being investigated by some company with a major case of butthurt, does not mean that MS is breaking any laws.

Heres a scenario:

I buy a 360. When i buy the 360 it can play dantels memorycards and has the ability to install games.

Something that MS obviously never intended the consumer to be able to do. Plus, one can still use third party hardware, it just has to be the standard 256 MB, On can also refuse the firmware update.

I mod the 360, i have every right to do so, according to norwegian law. I dont download pirated stuff.

This is true in the US.

I find out i want to play online. I decide to pay for the xbox live service.

 

I've broken the terms of use because of my mod. I get banned from xbox live. Microsoft has every right to do so.

But microsoft wants to stop pirates, so they include some code in their firmware that makes dantels memorycards uselss. Also since they detected a modchip they remove the ability to install game.

To be fair, if you are using a moded copy of the MS firmware (and you most likely are if you are saving games to the HD), you are violating copyright laws, so MS has every right to take away the privilage you had. 

I have done nothing illegal, yet microsoft has removed some of the features I paid for.

Yes, you have, if you are using a modified version of the MS firmware for your mod chip, you are breaking the law.

Microsoft has made a one-sided change in my verbal contract. The question is was the change done with justified cause?

The underlinded is whats being investigated.

Do you understand now?

No, I don't understand why you are arguing this point when you obviously are using a copy of MS fiormware which was pirated, and then modified. You agreed to use the console in the way it was intended by purchasing it, when you violate that agreement, MS has every right to violate their end of the agreement to force you to withold your end.

 

 



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masterb8tr on 26 November 2009
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:

this is the part that is most likely illegal. Lol it would be so much easier to explain if you knew norwegian:p And yes they havent been found guilty yet:P but they most likely will, if the "investigators" statements are anything to go by.

Can you give me a link to the law they are breaking? Because it is a screwed up law if what you are saying is true (and I suspect MS is still within the confines of it)

Anyway, typos happen, don't hold it against me *cries*

hehe "forbrukerkjøpsloven" and "avtaleloven", let me guess that didnt help did it:p? Anyway, they are not convicted yet:P so we will just have to wait and see:P. And even if they are, the fine would be by no means a threat to MS:p

So, where is the law that MS is supposibly breaking by updating their firmware to exclude memory cards over 512 MB?

So far your mod chip analogy fails because it is not against any laws to use a mod chip, it is not against any laws to flash it with linux. It is illegal to flash it with modifies MS firmware (in the US) and it is against the terms of use for XBL. If you agree tio the terms of use, then your console gets banned from XBL because of the mod chip, well, you agreed to let MS do that to you. And guess what? you can mod your console and not go onto XBL and guess what, nobody is going to stop you from using your 360 the way you want to.

And your cell phone analogy fails because cellphone firmware and game console firmware are very differant animals. The way in which both can be utilized is very different.

So would you care to explain yourself further? or do you admit defeat?

Let just get one thing clear: They ARE being investegated for breaking the law. So can we at least agree that what they are doing might not be legal according to Norwegian law??? "forbrukerkjøpsloven" as i refered to earlier is a law meant to protect the best interest of the seller and the customer. Basically i own what i buy, i get what i pay for ect. When i purchase a product, i've established a verbal contract with the salesman/and the maker of the product. "avtaleloven" is a law about contracts ect. According to it a one-sided change in the contract cant be done without justified cause.

Let's get something straight, Just because MS is being investigated by some company with a major case of butthurt, does not mean that MS is breaking any laws.

Heres a scenario:

I buy a 360. When i buy the 360 it can play dantels memorycards and has the ability to install games.

Something that MS obviously never intended the consumer to be able to do. Plus, one can still use third party hardware, it just has to be the standard 256 MB, On can also refuse the firmware update.

I mod the 360, i have every right to do so, according to norwegian law. I dont download pirated stuff.

This is true in the US.

I find out i want to play online. I decide to pay for the xbox live service.

 

I've broken the terms of use because of my mod. I get banned from xbox live. Microsoft has every right to do so.

But microsoft wants to stop pirates, so they include some code in their firmware that makes dantels memorycards uselss. Also since they detected a modchip they remove the ability to install game.

To be fair, if you are using a moded copy of the MS firmware (and you most likely are if you are saving games to the HD), you are violating copyright laws, so MS has every right to take away the privilage you had. 

I have done nothing illegal, yet microsoft has removed some of the features I paid for.

Yes, you have, if you are using a modified version of the MS firmware for your mod chip, you are breaking the law.

Microsoft has made a one-sided change in my verbal contract. The question is was the change done with justified cause?

The underlinded is whats being investigated.

Do you understand now?

No, I don't understand why you are arguing this point when you obviously are using a copy of MS fiormware which was pirated, and then modified. You agreed to use the console in the way it was intended by purchasing it, when you violate that agreement, MS has every right to violate their end of the agreement to force you to withold your end.

 

Norwegian law=/= usa law. I agreed to purchase the console. How i use it is not of any relevance to MS(NORWEGIAN LAW). Xbox live is a service not a product, thus i must agree with its terms of use. They can ban me from the service not from the product.They have removed functions i paid for even though i didnt do anything illegal. Is the Anti-pirating campaign a justified cause? most likely not. NO point in arguing here. Their is no company investigating MS... "forbrukerrådet" is not a company... Your arguments are invalid, they dont apply here in norway. You have no knowledge of norwegian law, i am talking about norwegian law ,ergo you're not qualified to give a valid opinion on the matter.

 

ALSO: i dont have a modded xbox lol

 



Mistershine on 26 November 2009
Damnyouall said:

Back on topic:

Damnyouall said:
Apparently logical thinking isn't everyone's strong suit.
Imagine you could only use a special licensed stereo in your car, pre-approved by the maker of your car. Or special licensed gas. Or special licensed tires. Or windshield wipers. Would you call bullshit? Yes you would.
Reality check: This is the same. Only because console makers have been doing it for 20 years in order to to maximize profits or to subsidize consoles sold at dumping prices, that doesn't make it right. I applaud their highly successful brainwashing.

This is really the same thing the makers of printers are trying to do (keep other companies from selling ink or toner cartridges for their devices, for instance by using special lock-out chips). Of course they failed with this; it's perfectly legal for other companies to manufacture and sell ink/toner cartridges.


Actually it is illegal to make compatible HP or Canon cartridges, but not to refill them.

In fact I think the only company that doesn't patent their cartridge/toner designs is Epson.



Reasonable on 27 November 2009
twesterm said:
Reasonable said:
twesterm said:

And just to reiterate-- as much as some people may wish it, the people at MS are not morons.

Just like I'm sure MS had their lawyers making sure what they did was legal in America, I'm sure they looked into international law too.  Norweighen law may be a mystery to me, but probably not so much Microsoft.

You're right, and also wrong - in as much as plenty of large US centric corporations like MS (and I work for one myself) regularly fall foul of European laws whether for employment, trading infringements or whatever.

The issue always seems to be the lawyers, etc. are in place but corporate decisions are often made US centric or before checking with every single local law team, with the result that they can get caught short - as MS itself knows with its years of hefty fines in Europe.

In the end the fact is that there is no guarantee how different regions might decide.  In US a court might find for MS, while in Europe the opposite could happen.

I do know, at least so far as my company is concerned, they hate European laws and even with billions and billions of dollars of revenue and lots of lawyers, etc. they still get caught by local legal decisions.

I don't know who you work for so I can't make assumptions about your company, but I know people that work for Microsoft and people that work for Microsoft Games-- both entities cross their t's and dot their i's.

I've worked for IBM and Microsoft in Europe and currently work for Oracle.  They all cross their 't's and dot their 'i's and each one of them in my experience has been tripped up here and there in Europe by local laws, etc.  It's mainly on smaller stuff, but sometimes it's on bigger stuff.  The main issue (as proven in MS's with the whole Windows/Explorer fiasco in Eruope) is that basic strategies these companies wish to employ (and which are fine in US) can and do get a different response in Europe.

I'm not saying MS will fall foul of anything, nor that they don't know what they're doing - they do and they can afford to hire the very best staff (yes I count myself in that!) - but on occasion issues do occur simply beacuse of differening laws.

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...