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Forums - Microsoft - Datel suing Microsoft over Max Memory card lockout

twesterm on 24 November 2009
Kasz216 said:
twesterm said:
Kasz216 said:
twesterm said:
 

That's like calling my TV, Car, and anything else with a circuit board a PC.  No, they are different things.

It is fair to say consoles are derived from PC's but they are not PC's. 

With TVs, Cars and anything else with a circuit board... you still don't grant the original producer a "closed system right".

There is no logical reason why videogame systems should have closed system rights for a product they've sold to a consumer anymore then they should have the right to block out products they don't like through their OS.

It's an identical actual situation.

But they do have a logical reason-- they stop devices they haven't signed off on because devices like the Datel memory card results in easy piracy.

Until game consoles are officially called game computers, they have every right to close it off as much as they want.  Just like how anyone can't just make games for the 360, anyone can't just make an accessory for the 360.  You may think it's right or wrong but that doesn't matter because that's just the way it is.

So... your arguement is... it's right because it has a different name.

Really?  So if i make something that looks and acts a lot like a gun, but call it an apple it suddenly makes sense that i don't have to follow proper firearm laws?

This makes sense to you?  You would just be fine accepting the fact that there were completly different laws involving my "apple" just because it had a slightly different name and very slight difference in how it worked, but still performed the same fuctions.

Also, the easy piracy statement... how is that any different from the many devices that make PC piracy a lot easier?

You're just really make absurd arguments here and it's pretty pointless arguing at this point.  We're just going back and forth and rather than just saying I'm right, you're wrong just think about this:

Would MS have done something like this if they didn't have their massive team of incredibly high prices lawyers look into this and say they're good to go?

They did this because they know they have every legal right to.  No pointless forum arguing is going to change it, it's their network and their systems, they have every right to ban you.



 

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Kasz216 on 24 November 2009
twesterm said:
Kasz216 said:
twesterm said:
Kasz216 said:
twesterm said:
 

That's like calling my TV, Car, and anything else with a circuit board a PC.  No, they are different things.

It is fair to say consoles are derived from PC's but they are not PC's. 

With TVs, Cars and anything else with a circuit board... you still don't grant the original producer a "closed system right".

There is no logical reason why videogame systems should have closed system rights for a product they've sold to a consumer anymore then they should have the right to block out products they don't like through their OS.

It's an identical actual situation.

But they do have a logical reason-- they stop devices they haven't signed off on because devices like the Datel memory card results in easy piracy.

Until game consoles are officially called game computers, they have every right to close it off as much as they want.  Just like how anyone can't just make games for the 360, anyone can't just make an accessory for the 360.  You may think it's right or wrong but that doesn't matter because that's just the way it is.

So... your arguement is... it's right because it has a different name.

Really?  So if i make something that looks and acts a lot like a gun, but call it an apple it suddenly makes sense that i don't have to follow proper firearm laws?

This makes sense to you?  You would just be fine accepting the fact that there were completly different laws involving my "apple" just because it had a slightly different name and very slight difference in how it worked, but still performed the same fuctions.

Also, the easy piracy statement... how is that any different from the many devices that make PC piracy a lot easier?

You're just really make absurd arguments here and it's pretty pointless arguing at this point.  We're just going back and forth and rather than just saying I'm right, you're wrong just think about this:

Would MS have done something like this if they didn't have their massive team of incredibly high prices lawyers look into this and say they're good to go?

They did this because they know they have every legal right to.  No pointless forum arguing is going to change it, it's their network and their systems, they have every right to ban you.

Yeah, they do have every legal right to do that.

That's not actually my point.

My point is... the fact that they do doesn't make any sense since it's incongruent with other nearly identical situations where it's illegal.

The laws in place currently don't make sense because they are incongruent with each other in nearly identical circumstances. 


I'm not talking about what actually is legal, but how the actual laws don't make sense.

Just like if i made something that was just like a gun but called an "Apple" it wouldn't make sense.  It's not a matter of law but common sense.

 



twesterm on 24 November 2009
Kasz216 said:

Yeah, they do have every legal right to do that.

That's not actually my point.

My point is... the fact that they do doesn't make any sense since it's incongruent with other nearly identical situations where it's illegal.

The laws in place currently don't make sense because they are incongruent with each other in nearly identical circumstances. 


I'm not talking about what actually is legal, but how the actual laws don't make sense.

Just like if i made something that was just like a gun but called an "Apple" it wouldn't make sense.  It's not a matter of law but common sense.

 

Then that's where we've been butting heads, I've been talking about what is legal and what rights they have, I don't care about moral or logic so much at the moment.  ^^



 

ironman on 24 November 2009
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
dsister44 said:
masterb8tr said:
nightsurge said:

So you are saying that no company is allowed to stop you from doing anything to any of their products in Norway?  I call bull.

Weak argument much=?After you've purchased their product, the product is  yours to do whatever you want with . Companies can in some cases make som changes in your product/the agreement after you bought it, however a one-sided change in a agreement like such is rarely approved.

Yes, you can do whatever you want with your console. But a company does not have the right to make an unapproved product. Microsoft has the right to deny it. It is not right for a company to make a profit on Microsoft's console without paying anything to them

Things are not that simple. Yes Microsoft has every right to change the design of their consoles so it doesnt accept modchips ect(as long as it doesnt cause monopoly issues) If i however can make a modchip that works on the 360, i can sell it to customers without giving MS a cent, as its not based on their technology. Its all about licenses and patents. Take cell phones for example. Usually you get the cellphones cheaper if it comes with a subscription to a telecompany. The phone will usually be locked to only work with that telecompany's simcards. Its not illegal however to make a program that removes this simcard lock.

Mod chips have nothing to do with the topic my friend. But since you went down that road, mod chips are not illegal to sell. You can even put one in your console without any issues, heck, you can even put a Linux on the modchip..it's once you put a modded version of the MS dashboard onto the mod chip that it becomes illegal.  As for the Cell phone example, that is bogus, if you cancel your cellular plan early, often you are liable for early cancelation fees which are meant to cover the cost of the cell phone. This virtually eliminates fraud.

On both fronts you are grossly off topic, and neither point is sufficaint enough to prove anything more than the fact that you are clueless.

Modchips has something to do with the topic... My point being Ms cant ban modchip or datels memorycard on already sold 360's, At least not in my country. They cant remove features i paid for later on. AS for the cell phone example you are clueless. It has nothing to do with cancelling the subscription to the telecompany only opening up the cellphone for other simcards. Its not fraud, hell they even run commercials on tv for that program in my country. In case you missed the point, different countries different laws..

But they are not banning modchips or anything of the sort. They are just updating their firmware, it just happens to keep people from using a larger memory card than what they offer. No problem with that, it breaks no laws, and is well within their boundaries.It doesn't even creat a monopoly since third party vendors can still sell memory cards, they just need to be the MS defalt size. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

As for the Cellphone example, it was bogus for the resason I pointed out. You can bypass the phones firmware, but the moment you cancel your plan to use the phone on another network, you get hit with an early cancelation fee. At any rate, it was a horrible example on your part.



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Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

Kasz216 on 24 November 2009
twesterm said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Yeah, they do have every legal right to do that.

That's not actually my point.

My point is... the fact that they do doesn't make any sense since it's incongruent with other nearly identical situations where it's illegal.

The laws in place currently don't make sense because they are incongruent with each other in nearly identical circumstances. 


I'm not talking about what actually is legal, but how the actual laws don't make sense.

Just like if i made something that was just like a gun but called an "Apple" it wouldn't make sense.  It's not a matter of law but common sense.

 

Then that's where we've been butting heads, I've been talking about what is legal and what rights they have, I don't care about moral or logic so much at the moment.  ^^

Ah fair enough.



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masterb8tr on 24 November 2009
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
dsister44 said:
masterb8tr said:
nightsurge said:

So you are saying that no company is allowed to stop you from doing anything to any of their products in Norway?  I call bull.

Weak argument much=?After you've purchased their product, the product is  yours to do whatever you want with . Companies can in some cases make som changes in your product/the agreement after you bought it, however a one-sided change in a agreement like such is rarely approved.

Yes, you can do whatever you want with your console. But a company does not have the right to make an unapproved product. Microsoft has the right to deny it. It is not right for a company to make a profit on Microsoft's console without paying anything to them

Things are not that simple. Yes Microsoft has every right to change the design of their consoles so it doesnt accept modchips ect(as long as it doesnt cause monopoly issues) If i however can make a modchip that works on the 360, i can sell it to customers without giving MS a cent, as its not based on their technology. Its all about licenses and patents. Take cell phones for example. Usually you get the cellphones cheaper if it comes with a subscription to a telecompany. The phone will usually be locked to only work with that telecompany's simcards. Its not illegal however to make a program that removes this simcard lock.

Mod chips have nothing to do with the topic my friend. But since you went down that road, mod chips are not illegal to sell. You can even put one in your console without any issues, heck, you can even put a Linux on the modchip..it's once you put a modded version of the MS dashboard onto the mod chip that it becomes illegal.  As for the Cell phone example, that is bogus, if you cancel your cellular plan early, often you are liable for early cancelation fees which are meant to cover the cost of the cell phone. This virtually eliminates fraud.

On both fronts you are grossly off topic, and neither point is sufficaint enough to prove anything more than the fact that you are clueless.

Modchips has something to do with the topic... My point being Ms cant ban modchip or datels memorycard on already sold 360's, At least not in my country. They cant remove features i paid for later on. AS for the cell phone example you are clueless. It has nothing to do with cancelling the subscription to the telecompany only opening up the cellphone for other simcards. Its not fraud, hell they even run commercials on tv for that program in my country. In case you missed the point, different countries different laws..

But they are not banning modchips or anything of the sort. They are just updating their firmware, it just happens to keep people from using a larger memory card than what they offer. No problem with that, it breaks no laws, and is well within their boundaries.It doesn't even creat a monopoly since third party vendors can still sell memory cards, they just need to be the MS defalt size. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

As for the Cellphone example, it was bogus for the resason I pointed out. You can bypass the phones firmware, but the moment you cancel your plan to use the phone on another network, you get hit with an early cancelation fee. At any rate, it was a horrible example on your part.

Heres the deal. If i mod my console and get 500gig storage, MS is breaking norwegian/and probably other countries law by removing a feature they have no right to remove...

 

at the boldet: I sure as hell didnt get hit with any early cancelation fee. I can now swap simcards yes, doesnt mean the subscription to the other telecompany is canceled. I still have to pay for their services even if i am not using them. I did not commit to only use their subscripton on my cell, i committed to their services for 12 months. It was a perfectly good example even if it doesnt apply to USA laws.

 

 



Damnyouall on 24 November 2009

Apparently logical thinking isn't everyone's strong suit.
Imagine you could only use a special licensed stereo in your car, pre-approved by the maker of your car. Or special licensed gas. Or special licensed tires. Or windshield wipers. Would you call bullshit? Yes you would.
Reality check: This is the same. Only because console makers have been doing it for 20 years in order to to maximize profits or to subsidize consoles sold at dumping prices, that doesn't make it right. I applaud their highly successful brainwashing.



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

Damnyouall on 24 November 2009
twesterm said:

Would MS have done something like this if they didn't have their massive team of incredibly high prices lawyers look into this and say they're good to go?

Oh boy.



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

ironman on 24 November 2009
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
dsister44 said:
masterb8tr said:
nightsurge said:

So you are saying that no company is allowed to stop you from doing anything to any of their products in Norway?  I call bull.

Weak argument much=?After you've purchased their product, the product is  yours to do whatever you want with . Companies can in some cases make som changes in your product/the agreement after you bought it, however a one-sided change in a agreement like such is rarely approved.

Yes, you can do whatever you want with your console. But a company does not have the right to make an unapproved product. Microsoft has the right to deny it. It is not right for a company to make a profit on Microsoft's console without paying anything to them

Things are not that simple. Yes Microsoft has every right to change the design of their consoles so it doesnt accept modchips ect(as long as it doesnt cause monopoly issues) If i however can make a modchip that works on the 360, i can sell it to customers without giving MS a cent, as its not based on their technology. Its all about licenses and patents. Take cell phones for example. Usually you get the cellphones cheaper if it comes with a subscription to a telecompany. The phone will usually be locked to only work with that telecompany's simcards. Its not illegal however to make a program that removes this simcard lock.

Mod chips have nothing to do with the topic my friend. But since you went down that road, mod chips are not illegal to sell. You can even put one in your console without any issues, heck, you can even put a Linux on the modchip..it's once you put a modded version of the MS dashboard onto the mod chip that it becomes illegal.  As for the Cell phone example, that is bogus, if you cancel your cellular plan early, often you are liable for early cancelation fees which are meant to cover the cost of the cell phone. This virtually eliminates fraud.

On both fronts you are grossly off topic, and neither point is sufficaint enough to prove anything more than the fact that you are clueless.

Modchips has something to do with the topic... My point being Ms cant ban modchip or datels memorycard on already sold 360's, At least not in my country. They cant remove features i paid for later on. AS for the cell phone example you are clueless. It has nothing to do with cancelling the subscription to the telecompany only opening up the cellphone for other simcards. Its not fraud, hell they even run commercials on tv for that program in my country. In case you missed the point, different countries different laws..

But they are not banning modchips or anything of the sort. They are just updating their firmware, it just happens to keep people from using a larger memory card than what they offer. No problem with that, it breaks no laws, and is well within their boundaries.It doesn't even creat a monopoly since third party vendors can still sell memory cards, they just need to be the MS defalt size. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

As for the Cellphone example, it was bogus for the resason I pointed out. You can bypass the phones firmware, but the moment you cancel your plan to use the phone on another network, you get hit with an early cancelation fee. At any rate, it was a horrible example on your part.

Heres the deal. If i mod my console and get 500gig storage, MS is breaking norwegian/and probably other countries law by removing a feature they have no right to remove...

 

at the boldet: I sure as hell didnt get hit with any early cancelation fee. I can now swap simcards yes, doesnt mean the subscription to the other telecompany is canceled. I still have to pay for their services even if i am not using them. I did not commit to only use their subscripton on my cell, i committed to their services for 12 months. It was a perfectly good example even if it doesnt apply to USA laws.

 

 

That wasn't a stock feature, they are not breaking any lawas if they remove the ability to use 500GB from their firmware. You can always mod the darn thing with an illegal version of the firm ware that will supportyour 500GB.

No, that's a horrible example, Cellphones are a completely differant animal, and you just admitted that what I was saying was completey true, you didn't cancel any plan, so no, you didn't get hit with the cancelation fee. I mean really, explain to me how this fits with memory cards and 360s...because I see no possible way it can.



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

masterb8tr on 24 November 2009
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
ironman said:
masterb8tr said:
dsister44 said:
masterb8tr said:
nightsurge said:

So you are saying that no company is allowed to stop you from doing anything to any of their products in Norway?  I call bull.

Weak argument much=?After you've purchased their product, the product is  yours to do whatever you want with . Companies can in some cases make som changes in your product/the agreement after you bought it, however a one-sided change in a agreement like such is rarely approved.

Yes, you can do whatever you want with your console. But a company does not have the right to make an unapproved product. Microsoft has the right to deny it. It is not right for a company to make a profit on Microsoft's console without paying anything to them

Things are not that simple. Yes Microsoft has every right to change the design of their consoles so it doesnt accept modchips ect(as long as it doesnt cause monopoly issues) If i however can make a modchip that works on the 360, i can sell it to customers without giving MS a cent, as its not based on their technology. Its all about licenses and patents. Take cell phones for example. Usually you get the cellphones cheaper if it comes with a subscription to a telecompany. The phone will usually be locked to only work with that telecompany's simcards. Its not illegal however to make a program that removes this simcard lock.

Mod chips have nothing to do with the topic my friend. But since you went down that road, mod chips are not illegal to sell. You can even put one in your console without any issues, heck, you can even put a Linux on the modchip..it's once you put a modded version of the MS dashboard onto the mod chip that it becomes illegal.  As for the Cell phone example, that is bogus, if you cancel your cellular plan early, often you are liable for early cancelation fees which are meant to cover the cost of the cell phone. This virtually eliminates fraud.

On both fronts you are grossly off topic, and neither point is sufficaint enough to prove anything more than the fact that you are clueless.

Modchips has something to do with the topic... My point being Ms cant ban modchip or datels memorycard on already sold 360's, At least not in my country. They cant remove features i paid for later on. AS for the cell phone example you are clueless. It has nothing to do with cancelling the subscription to the telecompany only opening up the cellphone for other simcards. Its not fraud, hell they even run commercials on tv for that program in my country. In case you missed the point, different countries different laws..

But they are not banning modchips or anything of the sort. They are just updating their firmware, it just happens to keep people from using a larger memory card than what they offer. No problem with that, it breaks no laws, and is well within their boundaries.It doesn't even creat a monopoly since third party vendors can still sell memory cards, they just need to be the MS defalt size. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

As for the Cellphone example, it was bogus for the resason I pointed out. You can bypass the phones firmware, but the moment you cancel your plan to use the phone on another network, you get hit with an early cancelation fee. At any rate, it was a horrible example on your part.

Heres the deal. If i mod my console and get 500gig storage, MS is breaking norwegian/and probably other countries law by removing a feature they have no right to remove...

 

at the boldet: I sure as hell didnt get hit with any early cancelation fee. I can now swap simcards yes, doesnt mean the subscription to the other telecompany is canceled. I still have to pay for their services even if i am not using them. I did not commit to only use their subscripton on my cell, i committed to their services for 12 months. It was a perfectly good example even if it doesnt apply to USA laws.

 

 

That wasn't a stock feature, they are not breaking any lawas if they remove the ability to use 500GB from their firmware. You can always mod the darn thing with an illegal version of the firm ware that will supportyour 500GB.

No, that's a horrible example, Cellphones are a completely differant animal, and you just admitted that what I was saying was completey true, you didn't cancel any plan, so no, you didn't get hit with the cancelation fee. I mean really, explain to me how this fits with memory cards and 360s...because I see no possible way it can.

whatever, my point dont seem to come across to you anyway. Either way the firmware also blocks your ability to install games(stock feature) on your harddrive, so we can at least agree that what they are doing is illegal..

I was giving an example to dsister.  Even if a company(A) makes a product that change the way another company (B)'s product work doesnt mean company A have to pay company B to sell their product. I never talked about canceling any plan, i talked about removing the simcard block with a program i bought. The devolopers of that program doesnt pay the cellmanufacturer or the telecompany even if their product is meant to alter how the cell works.