So I guess pack-ins are ok as long as they are Nintendo products. Here's the thing you either include pack-ins in their entirety or you don't include them at all. You cannot have it both ways.

My argument was truly absurd and it was, of course, intended that way. It simply highlights the absurd, yet logical conclusion of including packaged games in top 10 sales lists. I am sorry if you believe logic makes for a bad argument but I suspect it triumphs over whatever ambiguous rule that you wish to devise for handing this issue.

 Your argument didn't get any better.

 Im fairly sure those games could not be considered 'comercially viable' a pack in should only be counted if it could theoritically be sold individually and as such adds significant value to the product.

I'll say this and I'll say this once.

Those who complain about Nintendo pack-ins never seem to think about pack-ins from other companies (Sega, Sony, Microsoft).

And Super Mario Bros. 3 was INDEED a pack-in at one point in time. What about store-designed bundles and deals? If it bothers folks so bad then do historical research on when games were packed-in or not and at what time. Check all regions for bundles and deals. Check discounted games which move sales (best-seller, players' choice). Check the timing of these deals and its effects on sales.

You really don't want to open that Pandora's box. Ugly snakes in there. Eeesh!

Worse than those trick peanut brittle cans. 

John Lucas 

erm, you need to get your reading glasses cleaned.

The Sims is AT 16 million on this site. 16.08 million to be precise. The Sims 2 is probably an old figure (PC games aren't tracked very well) but is not in danger of breaking into the top 10

I don't disagree with you. But who gets to draw that arbitrary line? Value is itself arbitrary. For example its game that I would purchase independently. Clearly its a difficult issue to judge correctly.

Furthermore, some people gain significant value from the cheap games included with every PC. My sister for example plays those types of games on a daily basis. My mother is practically the same.

@Picko,

The line is very simple. If people buy the hardware FOR the software included then it counts. This is not the case with VC, XBox Live Arcade, Solitaire, Minesweeper, etc...and is a very easy line to see for those willing to be honest with themselves. Luckily a general community consensus can weed out the dishonesty.

So, who here thinks people buy a Wii to play Wii Sports?

I don't have to wait for the answers because its fairly obvious that the answer is "Of course people by a Wii for Wii Sports.".

What you fail to realise is that we are not attempting to set an industry standard and thus are not bound to some rigid rules of certainty.  What we are bound to is a community wide sense of fair play.  And thus it is more than fair to allow the community to decide. 

And yet the data suggests otherwise:

In Japan:

 Wii Sports: 2,158,823

 Wii: 3,685,519

Percentage: 58.6%

So when given a choice, 41.4% of Japanese Wii owners decided not to purchase Wii Sports. One would imagine that that percentage would be similar, if not larger, for the US and European audiences. Thats why the sales of pack-ins shouldn't be counted, they are in no way an accurate depiction of what would have occurred therefore they are not of any real value in comparing sales. A 40% discrepency is a massive amount to be out by, if Wii Sports was to see 40m copies in the US and Europe it could be out by 16m copies.

I stated earlier in the thread that I don't believe that pack-ins should be included at all. I simply choose to play devils advocate to highlight the true absurdity of saying that pack-ins should be included. I simply figured that as a sales site the members would like to discuss "real" numbers rather than biased and meaningless ones and in order to do that some rule would be needed to fairly treat pack-ins. 

 Anyway, I guess we can all move on :)
 

Actually that data proves my point exactly. The fact that more than 50% of people chose to buy Wii sports despite not being forced to do so says it all.

In other words, since most people would buy Wii Sports anyways. And the correct thing to do is to make the determination that effects the "actual" sales the least amount. The data you provided clearly shows that utilizing the logic you insist on following that we should be counting Wii Sports.


Since either way we decide we are going to be off the exact figures we should be using the closest match to the actual figures. Counting Wii Sports and similar pack ins makes sense, plain and simple.

As far as i am concerned, this has nothing to do with whether people wanted to buy the game or not.
The list is the top selling hard copies of all games, irrespective of what people chose to do.

god damn.