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Forums - Sales - The difficulty of selling a Wii

Final-Fan on 23 October 2007
Eomund said:
I don't see what the big deal is here. I will side with Capitalism any day of the week. Cdude is, for all intents and purposes, saving his Wii for someone who values it at that price. Its all supply and demands friends. When the demand is what it is now, and the supply barely or almost keeps up, then the value = cost. When the demand is higher, and supply is not keeping up with the demand, the the value > cost.

So peeps, when supply is less than demand, costs go up. They should go up to keep the market working. If people don't like it go to Cuba. When a price is fixed and demand increases, supply will NEVER keep up. If, however, prices can be adjusted, and demand increases, Supply will be able to meet the demand at some level.

If, for instance, Cdude has the last Wii in his state, then he could set the price much higher and people would pay for it. There is no shame in setting prices whatever you want, so long as people will pay it. There is nothing terrible or "douchebag" like quality to it. It simply is what it is. Profit.

If people are willing to pay, then they deserve to "get burned." I personally don't believe that people will pay more than something is worth (valued to them). If they don't want the product at that price then they won't buy it. Simple as that.

Eomund said:
choirsoftheeye said:
Dear Everyone,

The fact that capitalism is beneficial for some things doesn't mean that all instances of it are ethical or worthwhile. This isn't a debate of socialism vs. capitalism, it's a debate about a particular facet of capitalism. Stop grandstanding about the free market and consider the specific ethical properties of what I believe has been correctly identified as scalping.

Thanks!
-Choirs

Sadly, Capitalism is exactly what this is about. IF NOBODY VALUES A WII AT HIS ASKING POINT NOBODY WILL BUY IT! He will not take advantage of anybody that wants his Product. You may indeed call this scalping, that doesn't mean this is exactly what is happening. It is all about your perspective, world-view, paradigm, prism of reality, etc... of the market. I don't think he is taking advantage of anyone, so I cannot say that he is crossing any ethical line in the sand.


So are you saying that it's not scalping if people are willing to pay? That's idiotic. This situation is a function of fixed-price markets.

Let's say there's a lake in Flatland. (i.e. hypothetical two-dimensional world, as if on a sheet of paper.) People live on the edge of this Flatlake, and use the water for various things. Then the Flatlake shrinks. cdude is like an entrepeneur who offers, for a fee, to shift the Flatlake so that is is closer to one group of people -- and consequently further from others. cdude makes his profit, and some people "benefit", but that doesn't make him ethical -- and he does NOT benefit the market in general.  

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Final-Fan on 23 October 2007
cdude1034 said:
Final-Fan said:
cdude1034 said:
Final-Fan said:
cebrian said:
So... what if I go to the United States and get 5 wiis to resell them for 330 dollars in Mexico? The price for a Wii here is 400 dollars, I would be giving them for less money than they are worth in my country and i would be getting a healthy profit? would that make me a douchebag too?

No, it would not. Because that's a different situation. You've gone from "scalper" to "trader".

Yet another sigh.

A "scalper" "trades" their time and effort for profit.


OK, up to now you've been pretty intelligent, so I have to wonder if you're deliberately misunderstanding me. Unless, of course, you have just enough conscience to need to rationalize this kind of bullshit answer.

A TRADER takes an item from one market, where it is cheap ($X), to another market, where it is expensive ($Y), and sells it for $Z (where X

A SCALPER takes an item that is sold in short supply at a fixed price (Wii) or is sold out (tickets) and sells that item in the SAME MARKET he obtained it in for profit. This benefits the scalper, who profits, and allows sufficiently desperate individual customers to obtain the item; however, the customers in general are hurt by this process (they have to pay more).

Scalping, in modest amounts, is tolerated in capitalist societies; however, large markups are seen as equally large douchebaggery. And scalpers who belch platitudes about "helping the customer" are hated with a passion.

Is there any way we can get "douchebaggery" into the dictionary?

No, I wasn't deliberately misunderstanding you, I just got tired of posting on this so I got lazy. Sorry for not bringing my A game.

Anyway, if you look at it as a bartering system, we're all traders here. We all trade our time and skills to a company for federal reserve notes that they have earned by trading their goods and services to people who want them.

At one point those federal reserve notes represented gold and as such if we still lived in the early 1900's we could trade them for and equivalent amount of gold who we as humans have artificially given a value (as represented by these aforementioned Federal Reserve Notes) . *breathes*

Basically, we just disagree over how correct it is to do what I'm doing, which is cool.

Also, by your definition, a scalper is basically a trader who asks for more money.

Btw, this is a luxury item. I would never do this with a product essential to life.

Speaking of which; what about people who bottle water and sell it? Aren't they the real culprits here?! We should all go down to our nearest distributor and set this water free for everyone!


You ARE misunderstanding my argument, by which I mean your response COMPETELY IGNORES the argument I made and instead talks about how the monetary system is like a bartering system, which it's NOT.

My definitions of "scalper" and "trader" are clearly distinct and separate. The ultimate difference between them is that the trader enjoys a symbiotic relationship with the markets he serves, whereas the scalper is a simple parasite.

You, sir, are a parasite to the market. And since you are a natural function of our imperfect capitalist system, we accept that as long as you don't suck too much blood or deny your parasitic nature.

P.S.  Bottled water I have no problem with, in the USA, as it merely takes money from stupid people with money to burn.  That is what is great about capitalism. 


Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

sinha on 23 October 2007

I have no interest in discussing what kind of economic behavior constitutes "douchebaggery" or is "hated with a passion" but I think if NJ5 was making grossly unfair analogies (like the rape thing) on the *opposite* side of this argument, he'd point out that certain ethnic groups were persecuted (by simpletons / nativists with a nonexistent grasp of economics) for being middlemen who were perceived as not adding any value but instead gouging consumers and profiting off the hard work of others.



We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that they [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine and half years? It's a learning process. - SCEI president Kaz Hirai

It's a virus where you buy it and you play it with your friends and they're like, "Oh my God that's so cool, I'm gonna go buy it." So you stop playing it after two months, but they buy it and they stop playing it after two months but they've showed it to someone else who then go out and buy it and so on. Everyone I know bought one and nobody turns it on. - Epic Games president Mike Capps

We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games. - Activision CEO Bobby Kotick

 

cdude1034 on 23 October 2007
Final-Fan said:
 

You ARE misunderstanding my argument, by which I mean your response COMPETELY IGNORES the argument I made and instead talks about how the monetary system is like a bartering system, which it's NOT.

My definitions of "scalper" and "trader" are clearly distinct and separate. The ultimate difference between them is that the trader enjoys a symbiotic relationship with the markets he serves, whereas the scalper is a simple parasite.

You, sir, are a parasite to the market. And since you are a natural function of our imperfect capitalist system, we accept that as long as you don't suck too much blood or deny your parasitic nature.

 But, I provide a service/product to someone who needs it, who in turn, gives me the money I desire. That by definition also makes me a symbiote.



 

Currently playing: Civ 6

Eomund on 23 October 2007
Final-Fan said:
Eomund said:
I don't see what the big deal is here. I will side with Capitalism any day of the week. Cdude is, for all intents and purposes, saving his Wii for someone who values it at that price. Its all supply and demands friends. When the demand is what it is now, and the supply barely or almost keeps up, then the value = cost. When the demand is higher, and supply is not keeping up with the demand, the the value > cost.

So peeps, when supply is less than demand, costs go up. They should go up to keep the market working. If people don't like it go to Cuba. When a price is fixed and demand increases, supply will NEVER keep up. If, however, prices can be adjusted, and demand increases, Supply will be able to meet the demand at some level.

If, for instance, Cdude has the last Wii in his state, then he could set the price much higher and people would pay for it. There is no shame in setting prices whatever you want, so long as people will pay it. There is nothing terrible or "douchebag" like quality to it. It simply is what it is. Profit.

If people are willing to pay, then they deserve to "get burned." I personally don't believe that people will pay more than something is worth (valued to them). If they don't want the product at that price then they won't buy it. Simple as that.

Eomund said:
choirsoftheeye said:
Dear Everyone,

The fact that capitalism is beneficial for some things doesn't mean that all instances of it are ethical or worthwhile. This isn't a debate of socialism vs. capitalism, it's a debate about a particular facet of capitalism. Stop grandstanding about the free market and consider the specific ethical properties of what I believe has been correctly identified as scalping.

Thanks!
-Choirs

Sadly, Capitalism is exactly what this is about. IF NOBODY VALUES A WII AT HIS ASKING POINT NOBODY WILL BUY IT! He will not take advantage of anybody that wants his Product. You may indeed call this scalping, that doesn't mean this is exactly what is happening. It is all about your perspective, world-view, paradigm, prism of reality, etc... of the market. I don't think he is taking advantage of anyone, so I cannot say that he is crossing any ethical line in the sand.


So are you saying that it's not scalping if people are willing to pay? That's idiotic. This situation is a function of fixed-price markets.

Let's say there's a lake in Flatland. (i.e. hypothetical two-dimensional world, as if on a sheet of paper.) People live on the edge of this Flatlake, and use the water for various things. Then the Flatlake shrinks. cdude is like an entrepeneur who offers, for a fee, to shift the Flatlake so that is is closer to one group of people -- and consequently further from others. cdude makes his profit, and some people "benefit", but that doesn't make him ethical -- and he does NOT benefit the market in general.

 What you are not taking into account between your example with Flatland and Real Life is that there is always more supply being pumped out by Nintendo. I also disagree with your premise that he "offers, for a fee, to shift the Flatlake so that is is closer to one group of people -- and consequently further from others." He isn't shifting the entire flatlake, he is more carrying a bucket of water for someone else. Does the person buying that bucket of water EXPECT to get his service for free? Not if the person is rational.

I do not see how Cdude is not benefitting the market in general either. If someone will buy it then it is a good transaction. That benefits the market, no? When supply shrinks and demand is still high, prices by necessity will rise if they aren't fixed. In this manner supply may meet demand.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Final-Fan on 23 October 2007
Eomund said:
Final-Fan said:
Eomund said:


Eomund said:
choirsoftheeye said:


Let's say there's a lake in Flatland. (i.e. hypothetical two-dimensional world, as if on a sheet of paper.) People live on the edge of this Flatlake, and use the water for various things. Then the Flatlake shrinks. cdude is like an entrepeneur who offers, for a fee, to shift the Flatlake so that is is closer to one group of people -- and consequently further from others. cdude makes his profit, and some people "benefit", but that doesn't make him ethical -- and he does NOT benefit the market in general.

What you are not taking into account between your example with Flatland and Real Life is that there is always more supply being pumped out by Nintendo. I also disagree with your premise that he "offers, for a fee, to shift the Flatlake so that is is closer to one group of people -- and consequently further from others." He isn't shifting the entire flatlake, he is more carrying a bucket of water for someone else. Does the person buying that bucket of water EXPECT to get his service for free? Not if the person is rational.

I do not see how Cdude is not benefitting the market in general either. If someone will buy it then it is a good transaction. That benefits the market, no? When supply shrinks and demand is still high, prices by necessity will rise if they aren't fixed. In this manner supply may meet demand.


He's taking a bucket that would have gone to someone for free (in the example), and selling it to someone for a price.  Just because it WORKS capitalistically doesn't make it A-OK.  The fact that the Wii is not in a closed system doesn't make a closed-system analogy a bad comparison.  As for how he fails to benefit the market, I explain this in the exchange I am having with cdude himself, although I also think that the example spells it out fairly clearly. 

And hey, I'll even make the Flatlake a perfect analogy for the Wii.  The full flatlake is "Wiis in stock in stores", smaller Flatlake is "Wiis available to people who get there soon after shipment arrives".  The Flatlake grows at a steady pace until it reaches full size, but the Flatlanders are currently using more than it replenishes.  cdude's "bucket" is the Wiis he deprives People A on the west lake shore to sell to People B on the eastern shore.  My analogy is now perfect to the Wii situation in the USA, or close enough for any reasonable purpose in this discussion. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 23 October 2007
cdude1034 said:
Final-Fan said:
 

You ARE misunderstanding my argument, by which I mean your response COMPETELY IGNORES the argument I made and instead talks about how the monetary system is like a bartering system, which it's NOT.

My definitions of "scalper" and "trader" are clearly distinct and separate. The ultimate difference between them is that the trader enjoys a symbiotic relationship with the markets he serves, whereas the scalper is a simple parasite.

You, sir, are a parasite to the market. And since you are a natural function of our imperfect capitalist system, we accept that as long as you don't suck too much blood or deny your parasitic nature.

But, I provide a service/product to someone who needs it, who in turn, gives me the money I desire. That by definition also makes me a symbiote.


Not a parasite to the CUSTOMER, a parasite to the MARKET. You continue to misunderstand me.

edit:  Eomund, take note of this distinction as well.


Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

sinha on 23 October 2007
NJ5 said:
sinha said:
 

You're creating a false dichotomy. It's possible to "help people" (indirectly) without having an "altruistic motive"...

In fact, it happens all the time and is essentially the basis of the free market economic system that has proven to be quite effective at getting goods into the hands of those who value them.

Heck, Nintendo has a completely selfish and non-altruistic motive for making the Wii and selling it for $250, yet they are helping millions of gamers by doing so.


I think twesterm's point is that in terms of "helping", he's helping someone and unhelping someone else at the same time (the person who would pick up the Wii from the store if cdude didn't). So those factors either cancel out, does cdude think that the person who has access to Ebay has more right to the Wii than the other person, who might not have more than $250 to spend?

Personally, I think that the person who was going to the store but has potentially less money, is the one who should get the console. 


And that's where you and I disagree.  I think whoever is wants a product the most should get it.  But we can't just ask people "How bad do you want a Wii?" because everyone who wanted one would have the same answer ("A lot" "More than that other guy" etc.).  Therefore whoever is willing to pay the most for a product should get it.  Does that favor the rich to some extent?  Of course, welcome to real life.  But in this case there are still plenty of Wiis available to people with less money to get from stores for the listed price.  And some of those poorer people are probably the same people who are picking up the extra Wiis and selling them to rich people for a higher price.  Or do you think wealthy people like to make a little extra cash selling Wiis on ebay?

 



We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that they [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine and half years? It's a learning process. - SCEI president Kaz Hirai

It's a virus where you buy it and you play it with your friends and they're like, "Oh my God that's so cool, I'm gonna go buy it." So you stop playing it after two months, but they buy it and they stop playing it after two months but they've showed it to someone else who then go out and buy it and so on. Everyone I know bought one and nobody turns it on. - Epic Games president Mike Capps

We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games. - Activision CEO Bobby Kotick

 

NJ5 on 23 October 2007
sinha said:
I have no interest in discussing what kind of economic behavior constitutes "douchebaggery" or is "hated with a passion" but I think if NJ5 was making grossly unfair analogies (like the rape thing) on the *opposite* side of this argument, he'd point out that certain ethnic groups were persecuted (by simpletons / nativists with a nonexistent grasp of economics) for being middlemen who were perceived as not adding any value but instead gouging consumers and profiting off the hard work of others.

My point was not to say he was as bad as the rapist in my imagined story, of course not! It's just that extreme examples go a long way in making some people understanding why something is not true.

In this case, the point was that saying "if I didn't scalp, some other guy would" is a very flawed defense for scalping. For one thing, it doesn't say anything about whether it's bad to scalp or not, and for another, it doesn't contain any proof that someone else would indeed scalp in all instances.

 

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

twesterm on 23 October 2007
cdude1034 said:
Final-Fan said:
cebrian said:
So... what if I go to the United States and get 5 wiis to resell them for 330 dollars in Mexico? The price for a Wii here is 400 dollars, I would be giving them for less money than they are worth in my country and i would be getting a healthy profit? would that make me a douchebag too?

No, it would not. Because that's a different situation. You've gone from "scalper" to "trader".

Yet another sigh.

A "scalper" "trades" their time and effort for profit.


Trying to pass a technicality like that is like trying to say a thief doesn't steal, they just borrow with no intent of returning.

cdude1034 said:
 

Is there any way we can get "douchebaggery" into the dictionary?



 Douchebaggery is a wonderful word and it's just fun to say. 

Douchebaggery. 

Douchebaggery douchebaggery douchebaggery douchebaggery douchebaggery watermelon rutabaga gazebo.