ultima said:
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying... |
You argued that I contradict my religion. But u forgot that if there is a soul, which is at least partly independent of the material world, then free will could come out of the soul. And still 'nothing is ever random, everything has a cause' hold true. So no contradiction.
But why would the soul have free will? How could it? -- wouldn't the impulses from our soul also need a cause deterministically?
Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: 
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia. Thanks WordsofWisdom!
| Final-Fan said: But why would the soul have free will? How could it? -- wouldn't the impulses from our soul also need a cause deterministically? |
Free will compared to the physical world, or free will compared to your physical body. It's the conciousness part that is biggest 'evidence' of a soul to me. At least there's a spark of free will or force that is untied to the neuronal network.
I can't see a comp get what we call a mind or conciousness, even if it's designed as an electrical network and has access to lots of outside stimuli input sources (like hearing, sight, smell etc). I feel it hard to imagine a comp having emotions for example. How does a comp feel pain or joy or anger like living organisms do? I have a hard time imagining that.
| Final-Fan said: But why would the soul have free will? How could it? -- wouldn't the impulses from our soul also need a cause deterministically? |
Free will compared to the physical world, or free will compared to your physical body. It's the conciousness part that is biggest 'evidence' of a soul to me. At least there's a spark of free will or force that is untied to the neuronal network.
I can't see a comp get what we call a mind or conciousness, even if it's designed as an electrical network and has access to lots of outside stimuli input sources (like hearing, sight, smell etc). I feel it hard to imagine a comp having emotions for example. How does a comp feel pain or joy or anger like living organisms do? I have a hard time imagining that.
Slimebeast said:
Free will compared to the physical world, or free will compared to your physical body. It's the conciousness part that is biggest 'evidence' of a soul to me. At least there's a spark of free will or force that is untied to the neuronal network. I can't see a comp get what we call a mind or conciousness, even if it's designed as an electrical network and has access to lots of outside stimuli input sources (like hearing, sight, smell etc). I feel it hard to imagine a comp having emotions for example. How does a comp feel pain or joy or anger like living organisms do? I have a hard time imagining that. |
Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia. Thanks WordsofWisdom!
Final-Fan said:
Wait, wait. This is simply the "argument from personal incredulity" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance What does feeling pain have to do with free will anyway? |
That's how it is. I can't sit and wait for evidence that won't appear in my lifetime. I have to solve these things right here and now, and try to answer questions like if there exists a soul or not. From the evidence we do have I can't see that biology alone explains conciousness. So if we are to make an argument at all on this topic, it must be an 'argument from ignorance' or no argument at all.
I deduct things from each other. Free will is derived from the theory of the mind being partly independent from matter. Pain is a very interesting emotion. I can't imagine a comp feeling pain. I can imagine a comp reacting to potentially harmful stimuli, but I can't imagine a comp experience the feeling of pain.
If I come to the conclusion that a comp can't get a human mind, I deduct from that conclusion that the human mind must have something that is independent from the electrical activity in the neural network.
Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based.
I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion.
Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia. Thanks WordsofWisdom!
Slimebeast said:
That's how it is. I can't sit and wait for evidence that won't appear in my lifetime. I have to solve these things right here and now, and try to answer questions like if there exists a soul or not. From the evidence we do have I can't see that biology alone explains conciousness. So if we are to make an argument at all on this topic, it must be an 'argument from ignorance' or no argument at all. I deduct things from each other. Free will is derived from the theory of the mind being partly independent from matter. Pain is a very interesting emotion. I can't imagine a comp feeling pain. I can imagine a comp reacting to potentially harmful stimuli, but I can't imagine a comp experience the feeling of pain. |
It's fine that you don't want to sit around for evidence that may not appear in you lifetime, but why neglect evidence that is present? There is a proof of randomness, and you claim it to be false in favor of, IMHO, a completely ridiculous theory (that has no evidence for it).
And a computer is very different from a human brain. I don't think it's fair to compare them this way. A CPU has an ALU that makes it lightning fast with mathematical and logical calculations. We don't have that. What makes you think that our brain doesn't have a certain component that's responsible for consciousness, that isn't present in CPUs (which would explain why computer don't have feelings)?
| Final-Fan said: Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based. I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion. |
Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia. Thanks WordsofWisdom!
| Final-Fan said: Well, as long as you're saying "IMO" and not claiming that you're definitely right. Or, I suppose, if you claim you're definitely right but admit that your certainty is faith-based. I completely understand that lacking proof you want to go with your gut (although I myself try not to rule something out on a gut feeling) but you must admit that it doesn't constitute evidence supporting that conclusion. |
Yes, it's more 'IMO' than 'it's definately so'. But I would say it's more than just gut feeling or faith based.
I also am aware that it doesn't constitue hard evidence.
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