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Forums - Microsoft - Is Magna Carta 2 The Best JRPG Since Tales of Vesperia?

selnor on 12 October 2009
sc94597 said:
selnor said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
selnor said:
sc94597 said:
selnor said:
Wow. RThis thread went downhill with unecessary posts by people who will never play MC2. And Demon Souls by reviewers is said like Oblivion. Um Oblivion was as far from a JRPG as you can get. MC2 is JRPG!

Right let actual players comment. From what I understand it's actually a good game. Isn't that good for a JRPG?

Demon Souls looks nothing like oblivion. I don't care what reviewers say, it just isn't. Demon Souls plays more like a Japanese Action-Adventure mixed with Japanese Role Playing. You might get confused since Western RPGs are similar to Action-Adventures, but it is what it is, and that isn't a WRPG.  Like somebody mentioned earlier, MC2 is more similar to Korean MMOrpgs, which root themselves in Western Role Playing games than it is similar to Japanese Role Playing game. Either way, like I said earlier, the genres are merging back together, and pretty soon they are going to be one and the same again.

 

Key Things I would like to note when determining what genre a game is in.

- ALWAYS look at gameplay first and foremost. Do not look at story and say, this one is linear, that one isn't, they must be in such and such genre.

-  Do not confuse persective with the genre it takes place. An example that I would love to note. The Metroid Prime series isn't a first person shooter. This is because it plays like it's predecessors, an action adventure. So just because a perspective is more popular in one genre, that doesn't mean all games that use this perspective are in this genre.

- Try to stick to the major groups first, then narrow it down. The major groups are  Action, Adventure, Action-Adventure, RPG, Strategy, Simulation, and a few less broad ones like Puzzle or Rythm.

Action can be narrowed down into shooting, hack n slash, fighter, platformer, etc.

Adventure can be narrowed down into Point and Click adventures, and Open World adventures.

Action-Adventure could be  survival horror, or just regular action-adventure, mostly categorized by their perspective and specific gameplay aspects at this point.

RPG - Traditional(Turn based), Real time are the first major distinctions. Then you could go even more into Sandbox, Linear, Sectioned, etc that describe how much freedom you have.  I would say RPG shouldn't even be considered a genre. The games should be split into strategy, and action-adventure. There just isn't enough to differentiate some games from genres in other groupings, yet be so far apart from other RPGs.

Strategy - Turn Based(could go more into Strategy RPG), Real time.

Simulation - Pretty much whatever the game is simluating.

So yeah, it gets complicated, but I think that helps.

 

I disagree completely.

JRPG's arent really RPG's and never have been. The ONLY part of RPG they imitate is a level system.

JRPG's do not have multiple choices. Do not have create a character options. Do not have interaction with scenery ( except for what is story driven ). RPG's come from the original RPG pen and paper games. Where RPG's started. JRPG's have as much in common with these as Killzone 2 does. A level system thats it. Now I havent played Demon Souls, but what the reviews have said have next to sweet FA to do with JRPG's. And MUCH more akin to RPG's. ( I dont call them WRPG's anymore because, they are what the RPG originally was. )

I smell a typical JRPG vs WRPG fight coming.

And I love it when people start dropping the 'absolutes'.  There's always examples to prove an absolute statement wrong.  JRPGs don't have multiple choices?  What a vague statement.  Multiple options in story paths? (Suikoden, Fire Emblem, Chrono Trigger, etc)  Multiple options in character customization? (Dragon Quest, Seiken Densetsu, nearly any SRPG, etc) Seriously come on.

And as it has been stated multiple times, no video based RPG has ever created an experience mimicking Dungeons and Dragons 1:1.  That doesn't make them 'non-RPGs'.  That's like saying you can't classify a basketball game as a 'sports' game unless you're really playing actual Basketball.  Or a shooter as a shooter unless you're out playing actual paintball/shooting real guns.

In other words, if you have to go back to the source of a genres namesake to discredit the rest of a genre, then you're just grasping as straws.  And the same can be done for any genre.

This is not a direct answer to you, but what you describe is what I consider splitting hairs. I dont live in absolutes. But there is my mind no way a JRPG can really be considered a true RPG. Some have slight differences to each other, but IMO the JRPg's I have played have ALOT more in common with point and click adventures than RPG's. I feel like they are point and click adventures with a level/battle system. A traditional RPG is layered with choices. Not just you can do this or do that. But rather do what you want. Also RPG stands for Role laying Game. Where you play the role of A character. determining it's status, bloodline, strengths weaknesses etc. NOT a Party of people. Bioware are the closest devs to a true RPG experience in Video games. Bethesda also very impressive in this area.

The original WRPGs were pretty much the same as, say Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, Shin Megami Tensei, or the first three Final Fantasy's in set-up. You basically choose a Race, Class, Gender, then play through linear dungeons and that is that. It wasn't until MUCH later did Computer RPGs(WRPGs) gather the sandbox features. So you can probably say that many Jrpgs are much more traditional than Wrpgs. :) If you don't believe me, just read about the first Ultima. Tell me which that sounds more like Dragon Quest or Oblivion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_I:_The_First_Age_of_Darkness

 

I did say that I dont refer to games as WRPG's. Purely because There is RPG's and games that have a couple of RPG elements. Thats it. 1 or the other. I explained what an actual RPG is. And I said to developers that stick closely to that formula. It just so happens that more western companies make traditional RPG's. I have yet to find 1 eastern made game that is anything remotely close to say Dungeons and Dragons, Mass Effect or Any Elder Scrolls game. There are others, but this was examples.



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Torillian on 12 October 2009

I've never gotten the whole "WRPG's are exactly like D&D while JRPGS are nothing like it".

If your DM decides to make your character for you and then give you a more linear storyline that you can make choices within, that would be a JRPG.

Making a character and choosing whether or not to kill every person you come across isn't really what defines table top RPG's to me.



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sc94597 on 12 October 2009
selnor said:
 

I did say that I dont refer to games as WRPG's. Purely because There is RPG's and games that have a couple of RPG elements. Thats it. 1 or the other. I explained what an actual RPG is. And I said to developers that stick closely to that formula. It just so happens that more western companies make traditional RPG's. I have yet to find 1 eastern made game that is anything remotely close to say Dungeons and Dragons, Mass Effect or Any Elder Scrolls game. There are others, but this was examples.

Mass Effect and Oblivion are nowhere near good definitions of Role Playing Games. Nor should they be qualified as such. Sandbox Enivornment =/= Role Playing. Otherwise do you think Grand Theft Auto is a Role Playing Game?  Actually they probably deviated the most from the original WRPGs.  Like Kenryoku said, there isn't one video-based game that fits the perfect definition of a Role Playing Game. Also even in your comparison, the games are different enough to be labeled as different genre's. Oblivion should be an Action-Adventure, Mass Effect is iffy, either an Action-Adventure or Shooter with adventuring aspects. Dungeon's and Dragons depends on the game really. I've see those games everywhere. 

 

Edit: Oh and btw. You don't label games as WRPGs right?  Well then you better stop putting non-rpgs into a category called "RPG". Oblivion  and Mass Effect aren't "pure" examples of Role Playing games. I like to classify my RPGs by their battle system. Traditional Turnbased(which btw rooted from those Pen and Paper RPGs you are talking about,) Real Time, etc.



reaver_x on 12 October 2009

u no after reading all this BS back and forth back and forth i think ive lost my sense on wat an RPG is =/. No one here is gonna give a straight answer its just gonna be more BS from fukkin fanboys and 100% opinionated.




 

 

                     

Akvod on 12 October 2009

Magna Carta 2 isn't a JRPG...



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Torillian on 12 October 2009
reaver_x said:
u no after reading all this BS back and forth back and forth i think ive lost my sense on wat an RPG is =/. No one here is gonna give a straight answer its just gonna be more BS from fukkin fanboys and 100% opinionated.

Naz and I have talked about it before, and we decided that the two minimal things that define an RPG are some system of leveling that affects the base stats of your character, and some form of character customization be that through choices when leveling or just equipment choices.

These two definitions seem to define the genre enough that they include every game we consider RPG's and discludes those questionable games that we both agreed were not really RPG's such as Zelda.



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Kenryoku_Maxis on 12 October 2009
selnor said:
sc94597 said:
selnor said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
selnor said:
sc94597 said:
selnor said:
Wow. RThis thread went downhill with unecessary posts by people who will never play MC2. And Demon Souls by reviewers is said like Oblivion. Um Oblivion was as far from a JRPG as you can get. MC2 is JRPG!

Right let actual players comment. From what I understand it's actually a good game. Isn't that good for a JRPG?

Demon Souls looks nothing like oblivion. I don't care what reviewers say, it just isn't. Demon Souls plays more like a Japanese Action-Adventure mixed with Japanese Role Playing. You might get confused since Western RPGs are similar to Action-Adventures, but it is what it is, and that isn't a WRPG.  Like somebody mentioned earlier, MC2 is more similar to Korean MMOrpgs, which root themselves in Western Role Playing games than it is similar to Japanese Role Playing game. Either way, like I said earlier, the genres are merging back together, and pretty soon they are going to be one and the same again.

 

Key Things I would like to note when determining what genre a game is in.

- ALWAYS look at gameplay first and foremost. Do not look at story and say, this one is linear, that one isn't, they must be in such and such genre.

-  Do not confuse persective with the genre it takes place. An example that I would love to note. The Metroid Prime series isn't a first person shooter. This is because it plays like it's predecessors, an action adventure. So just because a perspective is more popular in one genre, that doesn't mean all games that use this perspective are in this genre.

- Try to stick to the major groups first, then narrow it down. The major groups are  Action, Adventure, Action-Adventure, RPG, Strategy, Simulation, and a few less broad ones like Puzzle or Rythm.

Action can be narrowed down into shooting, hack n slash, fighter, platformer, etc.

Adventure can be narrowed down into Point and Click adventures, and Open World adventures.

Action-Adventure could be  survival horror, or just regular action-adventure, mostly categorized by their perspective and specific gameplay aspects at this point.

RPG - Traditional(Turn based), Real time are the first major distinctions. Then you could go even more into Sandbox, Linear, Sectioned, etc that describe how much freedom you have.  I would say RPG shouldn't even be considered a genre. The games should be split into strategy, and action-adventure. There just isn't enough to differentiate some games from genres in other groupings, yet be so far apart from other RPGs.

Strategy - Turn Based(could go more into Strategy RPG), Real time.

Simulation - Pretty much whatever the game is simluating.

So yeah, it gets complicated, but I think that helps.

 

I disagree completely.

JRPG's arent really RPG's and never have been. The ONLY part of RPG they imitate is a level system.

JRPG's do not have multiple choices. Do not have create a character options. Do not have interaction with scenery ( except for what is story driven ). RPG's come from the original RPG pen and paper games. Where RPG's started. JRPG's have as much in common with these as Killzone 2 does. A level system thats it. Now I havent played Demon Souls, but what the reviews have said have next to sweet FA to do with JRPG's. And MUCH more akin to RPG's. ( I dont call them WRPG's anymore because, they are what the RPG originally was. )

I smell a typical JRPG vs WRPG fight coming.

And I love it when people start dropping the 'absolutes'.  There's always examples to prove an absolute statement wrong.  JRPGs don't have multiple choices?  What a vague statement.  Multiple options in story paths? (Suikoden, Fire Emblem, Chrono Trigger, etc)  Multiple options in character customization? (Dragon Quest, Seiken Densetsu, nearly any SRPG, etc) Seriously come on.

And as it has been stated multiple times, no video based RPG has ever created an experience mimicking Dungeons and Dragons 1:1.  That doesn't make them 'non-RPGs'.  That's like saying you can't classify a basketball game as a 'sports' game unless you're really playing actual Basketball.  Or a shooter as a shooter unless you're out playing actual paintball/shooting real guns.

In other words, if you have to go back to the source of a genres namesake to discredit the rest of a genre, then you're just grasping as straws.  And the same can be done for any genre.

This is not a direct answer to you, but what you describe is what I consider splitting hairs. I dont live in absolutes. But there is my mind no way a JRPG can really be considered a true RPG. Some have slight differences to each other, but IMO the JRPg's I have played have ALOT more in common with point and click adventures than RPG's. I feel like they are point and click adventures with a level/battle system. A traditional RPG is layered with choices. Not just you can do this or do that. But rather do what you want. Also RPG stands for Role laying Game. Where you play the role of A character. determining it's status, bloodline, strengths weaknesses etc. NOT a Party of people. Bioware are the closest devs to a true RPG experience in Video games. Bethesda also very impressive in this area.

The original WRPGs were pretty much the same as, say Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, Shin Megami Tensei, or the first three Final Fantasy's in set-up. You basically choose a Race, Class, Gender, then play through linear dungeons and that is that. It wasn't until MUCH later did Computer RPGs(WRPGs) gather the sandbox features. So you can probably say that many Jrpgs are much more traditional than Wrpgs. :) If you don't believe me, just read about the first Ultima. Tell me which that sounds more like Dragon Quest or Oblivion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_I:_The_First_Age_of_Darkness

 

I did say that I dont refer to games as WRPG's. Purely because There is RPG's and games that have a couple of RPG elements. Thats it. 1 or the other. I explained what an actual RPG is. And I said to developers that stick closely to that formula. It just so happens that more western companies make traditional RPG's. I have yet to find 1 eastern made game that is anything remotely close to say Dungeons and Dragons, Mass Effect or Any Elder Scrolls game. There are others, but this was examples.

The closest video game to ever make a game close to Dungeons and Dragons was Ultima, which basically took the basic classes, stats and storyline and put it into a video game model.  But even then, it had to alter certain things to make it work for a video game.  And one of the things it hd to do was create a standardized EXP based system as well as create a story the player 'experienced', not a story they could create themselves.

Also, today one of the biggest JRPG series is still following the basic formula of Ultima, but with a much more evolved system of story-telling and combat engine.  Its called Dragon Quest.

In any event, Like sc94597 said, what you're looking for is some kind of sandbox Action game where you can do whatever you want and call it an RPG.  That's not possible in a video game, unless you are the game developer.  Some variables have to be set.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Khuutra on 12 October 2009
Torillian said:
I've never gotten the whole "WRPG's are exactly like D&D while JRPGS are nothing like it".

If your DM decides to make your character for you and then give you a more linear storyline that you can make choices within, that would be a JRPG.

Making a character and choosing whether or not to kill every person you come across isn't really what defines table top RPG's to me.

I would take that DM out behind the shed and beat the stupid out of him, for the record. Not that it's a bad experience, but if I wanted that I'd play EarthBound or Final Fantasy instead of letting some Cheetoh-smelling nerd dictate a story and my actions to me.



selnor on 12 October 2009
Khuutra said:
Torillian said:
I've never gotten the whole "WRPG's are exactly like D&D while JRPGS are nothing like it".

If your DM decides to make your character for you and then give you a more linear storyline that you can make choices within, that would be a JRPG.

Making a character and choosing whether or not to kill every person you come across isn't really what defines table top RPG's to me.

I would take that DM out behind the shed and beat the stupid out of him, for the record. Not that it's a bad experience, but if I wanted that I'd play EarthBound or Final Fantasy instead of letting some Cheetoh-smelling nerd dictate a story and my actions to me.

It's this that people aren't understanding. I was an avid D&D player in my younger teens. I have never really considered JRPG's RPG's at all. I alos cannot see why people think Dragon Quest is like an RPG either? I have only played 7 though. But I'm sure it works similar to the others.



huaxiong90 on 12 October 2009

MC2 is a KRPG (Korean RPG).

And while it is a good game (so far for me), I think Demon's Souls is better.



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