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Forums - General - Greatest scientific evidence for evolution?

Baroque_Dude on 10 October 2009
highwaystar101 said:
Slimebeast said:
highwaystar101 said:
Slimebeast said:

About wings. Why arent there any species on their way to develop wings, but thousands of species with regressed wings (which have some use, but cant be flied with any more)
(some bugs and other insects, bats, penguins, ostriches, kiwi etc)

I need a good explanation for that, because statistically it doesn't make any sense.


Manusjustus and bdbdbdbd have already answered this so I wont because I want to bring up a different point. Surely the fact that you have acknowledged that thousands of species have regressed wings proves you actually accept evolution. Remember organ evolution doesn't just have to be progressive, it can be regressive too.

 


I'm going to be honest and I really hope that it doesn't offend you. I think you are obviously one of, if not the most intelligent and logical member on the site (and I don't mind admitting that). That aside, I get the feeling with you that you do in fact accept evolution in the back of your mind, but you repress it somehow. When you speak about evolution it's not the same type of denial that many members show, you don't argue in the same way. When I read your arguments I always have a feeling that you are arguing against it but you accept subconsciously, even if you don't consciously.

 


I hope I didn't offend you, sorry if I was a bit brutally honest there.

Thanks for the compliments.

That's a great analysis. There's a lot of truth to it. I admit that as a Christian it lies in my interest that evolution is false, while there's lots of evidence pointing towards evolution. I guess this is why ID was 'invented' basically.

But it's also for technical reasons in evo discussions much easier to argue from a 'let's assume this for a second, however...' methodology, like in the regression of wings example.

(btw just a note, many creationist sort of accept organ and trait regression - I dont remember the term for it, but as long as there's no evidence for 'de-novo evolution' it's okay, and from a relgious point of view regression is part of the defect state of the world - you could say sort of a Satanic devolution, or something, which also explains why people early in Biblical history lived 800 years while now diseases and defects kill us early)

 

 

Oh good, I'm so glad that I didn't offend you. Even though I was being honest, I thought maybe I was crossing a line there. But it's all good.

About the Christian "bias" if you will. I've never understood the whole evolution/big bang Christian thing anyway. Obviously there are a few problems between the two but I believe it was pope John Paul II who said something like...

"Evolution and the big bang are perfectly compatible theories with Christianity, as long as long as you accept god was the creator then why couldn't evolution and the big bang just be his methods of creation?".

I think that was severely paraphrased as it was from memory, but you get the point. If there is a god then why shouldn't these be his methods of creation? They obviously work, regardless of who or what started it.

Just a side note, partially related to your post, although not directly related with the current topic:

Being the papacy a completely antibiblical institution (not only because of its origin and reasons to exist, but also because of its doctrine nowadays and in the past), the Pope isn't the best source that Christians should listen in order to know how they have to behave Christianly. Not at all.

One may embrace creationism or not, but if you call yourself a Christian (that means not only accepting Christ as your Saviour, but also accepting what He taught and He didn't change the Old Testament nor the Creation account), it's utterly stupid to believe "in" evolution. I repeat, I'm not referring to discuss if evolution is true or not, I'm pointing out that saying to be Christian and believing in evolution isn't simply compatible. If you believe in evolution, good for you, but do "Christianity" a favour and don't call yourself a Christian because you're rejecting the very base.

Some people (both Christians and atheists/agnostics) understand this very well while others seem to keep smashing their heads against a wall, by saying that is compatible. Thank you, Pope, for one more of your stellar contributions to Christianity.

*breathes, sighs, leaves*



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

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WessleWoggle on 10 October 2009

I'm a christian and an atheist and I believe in evolution.

How does that suit you Mr. Baroque?

I thought the base of christianity was to emulate christ, not worship silly scipture.



Rath on 10 October 2009

@Baroque. I think it is supremely arrogant to believe that your interpretation of Christianity is the only one that is really Christian.



Final-Fan on 10 October 2009
Baroque_Dude said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh good, I'm so glad that I didn't offend you. Even though I was being honest, I thought maybe I was crossing a line there. But it's all good.

About the Christian "bias" if you will. I've never understood the whole evolution/big bang Christian thing anyway. Obviously there are a few problems between the two but I believe it was pope John Paul II who said something like...

"Evolution and the big bang are perfectly compatible theories with Christianity, as long as long as you accept god was the creator then why couldn't evolution and the big bang just be his methods of creation?".

I think that was severely paraphrased as it was from memory, but you get the point. If there is a god then why shouldn't these be his methods of creation? They obviously work, regardless of who or what started it.

Just a side note, partially related to your post, although not directly related with the current topic:

Being the papacy a completely antibiblical institution (not only because of its origin and reasons to exist, but also because of its doctrine nowadays and in the past), the Pope isn't the best source that Christians should listen in order to know how they have to behave Christianly. Not at all.

One may embrace creationism or not, but if you call yourself a Christian (that means not only accepting Christ as your Saviour, but also accepting what He taught and He didn't change the Old Testament nor the Creation account), it's utterly stupid to believe "in" evolution. I repeat, I'm not referring to discuss if evolution is true or not, I'm pointing out that saying to be Christian and believing in evolution isn't simply compatible. If you believe in evolution, good for you, but do "Christianity" a favour and don't call yourself a Christian because you're rejecting the very base.

Some people (both Christians and atheists/agnostics) understand this very well while others seem to keep smashing their heads against a wall, by saying that is compatible. Thank you, Pope, for one more of your stellar contributions to Christianity.

*breathes, sighs, leaves*

Well, "Catholics aren't Christian" is better than "the Pope is the AntiChrist", but ... no.  

Also, I think you're putting way too much on the phrase "believing IN evolution".  Most people who might say yes to "do you believe in evolution?" really mean that they are confident in the correctness of the theory, not that they subscribe dogmatically to some mythical faith revolving around evolution.  

So in short, don't jump on a minute misspeech that WessleWoggle highwaystar101 and the Pope didn't even commit.   [edit:  sigh, until after you'd already made your post.] [edit2: nvm, you were responding to highwaystar.]



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Baroque_Dude on 10 October 2009
WessleWoggle said:

I'm a christian and an atheist and I believe in evolution.

How does that suit you Mr. Baroque?

I thought the base of christianity was to emulate christ, not worship silly scipture.

If you're atheist you're not Christian, since Christ said that He is the Son of God and God himself, hence He preached about God.

But hey, you say that you're Christian and you don't agree with what Christ said, Mr. Wessle.



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

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Baroque_Dude on 10 October 2009
Rath said:
@Baroque. I think it is supremely arrogant to believe that your interpretation of Christianity is the only one that is really Christian.

I'm feel kind of bad that a serious user like you has misjudged me.

I'm not arrogant, at all, just for expressing my opinion. Don't you express yours? Does that make you arrogant? Did I say that you're arrogant because you're fighting here who believes in intelligent design (in other words, you're explaining that your opinion is better and why)? I don't agree with your opinion, but I didn't call you arrogant for this.

What you said is like: "you're arrogant because you think that your opinion is the best".

...



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

Baroque_Dude on 10 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Baroque_Dude said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh good, I'm so glad that I didn't offend you. Even though I was being honest, I thought maybe I was crossing a line there. But it's all good.

About the Christian "bias" if you will. I've never understood the whole evolution/big bang Christian thing anyway. Obviously there are a few problems between the two but I believe it was pope John Paul II who said something like...

"Evolution and the big bang are perfectly compatible theories with Christianity, as long as long as you accept god was the creator then why couldn't evolution and the big bang just be his methods of creation?".

I think that was severely paraphrased as it was from memory, but you get the point. If there is a god then why shouldn't these be his methods of creation? They obviously work, regardless of who or what started it.

Just a side note, partially related to your post, although not directly related with the current topic:

Being the papacy a completely antibiblical institution (not only because of its origin and reasons to exist, but also because of its doctrine nowadays and in the past), the Pope isn't the best source that Christians should listen in order to know how they have to behave Christianly. Not at all.

One may embrace creationism or not, but if you call yourself a Christian (that means not only accepting Christ as your Saviour, but also accepting what He taught and He didn't change the Old Testament nor the Creation account), it's utterly stupid to believe "in" evolution. I repeat, I'm not referring to discuss if evolution is true or not, I'm pointing out that saying to be Christian and believing in evolution isn't simply compatible. If you believe in evolution, good for you, but do "Christianity" a favour and don't call yourself a Christian because you're rejecting the very base.

Some people (both Christians and atheists/agnostics) understand this very well while others seem to keep smashing their heads against a wall, by saying that is compatible. Thank you, Pope, for one more of your stellar contributions to Christianity.

*breathes, sighs, leaves*

Well, "Catholics aren't Christian" is better than "the Pope is the AntiChrist", but ... no.  

Also, I think you're putting way too much on the phrase "believing IN evolution".  Most people who might say yes to "do you believe in evolution?" really mean that they are confident in the correctness of the theory, not that they subscribe dogmatically to some mythical faith revolving around evolution.  

So in short, don't jump on a minute misspeech that WessleWoggle and the Pope didn't even commit.   [edit:  sigh, until after you'd already made your post.]

That's why I put "believe "in" evolution. Do you see that?

We humans accept and assume things differently, sometimes. When I say that they believe in evolution I was precisely referring to what you said, although I must also say that a lot of people accept it "just because".

Regards.



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!

WessleWoggle on 10 October 2009
Baroque_Dude said:
WessleWoggle said:

I'm a christian and an atheist and I believe in evolution.

How does that suit you Mr. Baroque?

I thought the base of christianity was to emulate christ, not worship silly scipture.

If you're atheist you're not Christian, since Christ said that He is the Son of God and God himself, hence He preached about God.

But hsey, you say that you're Christian and you don't agree with what Christ said, Mr. Wessle.

Christ is the Son of YHWH and YHWH himself. But I don't believe YHWH is the ultimate God of gods, the self existant being.

I believe Christ had good intentions and his spirit lives on in his believers and through his worship.

I believe christ had lots of good messages and I try to emulate the good messages in every day life. In that sense I am a christian

I believe christ believed everything he said was true.

I don't believe in God. God split themself up into infinite streams of conciousness and matter that constantly shift, combine, split, to make environments for physical universes containing life. YHWH is one of these conciousness streams, so is Christ. Christ and YHWH are the same stream of conciousness incarnated in the form of God and man.

My beliefs are whacky, aren't they?

 

 

 



Final-Fan on 10 October 2009
Baroque_Dude said:
Final-Fan said:
Baroque_Dude said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh good, I'm so glad that I didn't offend you. Even though I was being honest, I thought maybe I was crossing a line there. But it's all good.

About the Christian "bias" if you will. I've never understood the whole evolution/big bang Christian thing anyway. Obviously there are a few problems between the two but I believe it was pope John Paul II who said something like...

"Evolution and the big bang are perfectly compatible theories with Christianity, as long as long as you accept god was the creator then why couldn't evolution and the big bang just be his methods of creation?".

I think that was severely paraphrased as it was from memory, but you get the point. If there is a god then why shouldn't these be his methods of creation? They obviously work, regardless of who or what started it.

Just a side note, partially related to your post, although not directly related with the current topic:

Being the papacy a completely antibiblical institution (not only because of its origin and reasons to exist, but also because of its doctrine nowadays and in the past), the Pope isn't the best source that Christians should listen in order to know how they have to behave Christianly. Not at all.

One may embrace creationism or not, but if you call yourself a Christian (that means not only accepting Christ as your Saviour, but also accepting what He taught and He didn't change the Old Testament nor the Creation account), it's utterly stupid to believe "in" evolution. I repeat, I'm not referring to discuss if evolution is true or not, I'm pointing out that saying to be Christian and believing in evolution isn't simply compatible. If you believe in evolution, good for you, but do "Christianity" a favour and don't call yourself a Christian because you're rejecting the very base.

Some people (both Christians and atheists/agnostics) understand this very well while others seem to keep smashing their heads against a wall, by saying that is compatible. Thank you, Pope, for one more of your stellar contributions to Christianity.

*breathes, sighs, leaves*

Well, "Catholics aren't Christian" is better than "the Pope is the AntiChrist", but ... no.  

Also, I think you're putting way too much on the phrase "believing IN evolution".  Most people who might say yes to "do you believe in evolution?" really mean that they are confident in the correctness of the theory, not that they subscribe dogmatically to some mythical faith revolving around evolution.  

So in short, don't jump on a minute misspeech that [edit: highwaystar101] and the Pope didn't even commit.   

That's why I put "believe "in" evolution. Do you see that?

We humans accept and assume things differently, sometimes. When I say that they believe in evolution I was precisely referring to what you said, although I must also say that a lot of people accept it "just because".

Regards.

And at what point exactly did the Pope say it's OK to "believe in evolution"?  Because otherwise that whole part of the post falls apart.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Baroque_Dude on 10 October 2009
WessleWoggle said:
Baroque_Dude said:
WessleWoggle said:

I'm a christian and an atheist and I believe in evolution.

How does that suit you Mr. Baroque?

I thought the base of christianity was to emulate christ, not worship silly scipture.

If you're atheist you're not Christian, since Christ said that He is the Son of God and God himself, hence He preached about God.

But hsey, you say that you're Christian and you don't agree with what Christ said, Mr. Wessle.

Christ is the Son of YHWH and YHWH himself. But I don't believe YHWH is the ultimate God of gods, the self existant being.

I believe Christ had good intentions and his spirit lives on in his believers and through his worship.

I believe christ had lots of good messages and I try to emulate the good messages in every day life. In that sense I am a christian

I believe christ believed everything he said was true.

I don't believe in God. God split themself up into infinite streams of conciousness and matter that constantly shift, combine, split, to make environments for physical universes containing life. YHWH is one of these conciousness streams, so is Christ. Christ and YHWH are the same stream of conciousness incarnated in the form of God and man.

My beliefs are whacky, aren't they?

 

 

 

Yep, I see...

I would ask you how come you believe in all that, I mean, where did it come from? But that would derail the topic so...



"I think that I don't think."

- Soli Deo Gloria -

The FUTURE is the FUTURE. Now... B_E_L_I_E_V_E!