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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
I like the double standard here. I am wrong for assuming that my computer exists and he gets to assume that a supernatural being described in a 2,000 year old book exists.

I never said you were wrong for assuming, but merely that you were assuming (everything).

I don't actually think science can do anything. If science, then  I'm merely saying in my argument "If science, then...".

...

I'm aiming to demonstrate the possibility of a supernatural explanation.

A supernatural explanation in itself is a huge assumption.

First, you have to assume that a supernatural being exists, then you have to assume that that supernatural being interacts withthe physical world.

I agree - my argument with you was about whether or not anything can be proven about reality.



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appolose said:
Final-Fan said:

appolose, I can't seem to get a PM sent and I'm too frustrated to do any more troubleshooting.  If you absolutely refuse to do this in the thread then so be it.  

I saw it, but to be honest I started skimming because I thought I could simplify things by pointing out that the part I quoted was FLAT OUT WRONG.  I guess I was wrong when I thought that the bulk of your post hinged on that statement.  

And the answer is B.  

"So, then, how do I get the supernatural out of it if they don't actually contradict? By this: given that my 2nd observation involves the creation of matter, it follows that it had a means of creation (things cannot create themselves; that's illogical). And, since we've already established that things cannot physically be created, we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation. If the objection is raised that “Science is not supposed to conclude on the supernatural”, what then do we do? We cannot conclude that our 1st assumption is in error, because we do not have any counter-observations at hand (otherwise, that basic tenet of “If observed enough, it is assumed true” is contradicted), unlike my previous paragraph. You could say “well, I guess science has failed this time”, what does that actually mean? That doesn't solve the contradiction. No, the only thing left (I posit) is to throw away the objection that science cannot conclude on the supernatural." 

First:  why can't things create themselves?  That is an assumption you are making.  But never mind; we'll roll with it.  

Second:  "We cannot conclude that our 1st assumption is in error, because we do not have any counter-observations at hand (otherwise, that basic tenet of “If observed enough, it is assumed true” is contradicted)"  (the 1st assumption being, I gather, "we've already established that things cannot physically be created".  

But you DO have a counter-observation, don't you?  The second observation -- the one where matter is created.  If it wasn't a counter-observation, then I don't know what the hell you are talking about because the "assumption" (theory) has not been challenged!  

In the case of science being tasked with finding a natural explanation (the only kind of explanation it CAN find) for the supernatural, it is doomed to never succeed -- BUT WE'LL NEVER KNOW THAT unless you can somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.  

I see this is actually the assertion you DO make with the following paragraph:  
"A more simple example would be this, “We constantly see matter coming into existence, and, after examining the situations from every possible angle trillions of times, exploring every corner of the universe, and having observed no physical cause for this matter's creation, we thus assume (in accordance with the tenet) that there is no physical cause for this matter's creation” Science would have to conclude like that, yes? After all, it was observed countless times that there was no physical cause. If you're saying that science says that “Only the physical exists” (which is a presupposition only), then science contradicts itself, I assert."

The problem is that, not being gods, we cannot be sure that we have actually exhausted every possibility, every hypothesis, and every idea without mathematical proof, so instead of "no physical cause" it should be "no KNOWN cause".  But even if we did, science is limited in its conclusions to things that can be tested.  How do you test for the supernatural?  So science would have to just continue to mark it up to "no known cause" while we used process of elimination to suppose that the cause was supernatural (in the belief that our scientists had not in fact overlooked any possibility).  Or we would think that perhaps true spontaneity is (naturally) possible after all!  And can I presume that you are assuming that we could somehow eliminate the possibility that the matter is being "exported" from another universe?  Seems pretty hard to disprove to me...

No, it's fine.  If you're having trouble PM'ing, I'll do it out here.  No personal worries, either.

In any event,

I'll explain my statement of things not being able to create themselves (not that it matters to much since you're rolling with it, but I might as well): To say "This thing created itself" would imply that it existed before it existed (otherwise, how could it create itself unless it was around to create?), which is nonsense.

Now, I will clear this part up here and now: the second observation in the scenario is not a counter-observation.  A counter one (or, contradictory, whatever suits your fancy) would be "Matter can be created physically"  My 2nd observation does not have "physicall" in it, so it is not contradicting it.

As for how, then, I get anything out of it,

"So, then, how do I get the supernatural out of it if they don't actually contradict? By this: given that my 2nd observation involves the creation of matter, it follows that it had a means of creation (things cannot create themselves; that's illogical). And, since we've already established that things cannot physically be created, we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation. If the objection is raised that “Science is not supposed to conclude on the supernatural”, what then do we do? We cannot conclude that our 1st assumption is in error, because we do not have any counter-observations at hand (otherwise, that basic tenet of “If observed enough, it is assumed true” is contradicted), unlike my previous paragraph. You could say “well, I guess science has failed this time”, what does that actually mean? That doesn't solve the contradiction. No, the only thing left (I posit) is to throw away the objection that science cannot conclude on the supernatural."

In light of my explanation of how the two observations interact, I repost this, hopefully having given the clarity lacking from my example, for it lays out my case for the deduction of the supernatural.

"BUT WE'LL NEVER KNOW THAT unless you can somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.

Fully agreed.  As you note, my 2nd example moves towards that (my first one does at well, but it probably was not very clearly worded, so that may have been missed).

"The problem is that, not being gods, we cannot be sure that we have actually exhausted every possibility, every hypothesis, and every idea without mathematical proof, so instead of 'no physical cause' it should be 'no KNOWN cause'"

This is indeed true.  On the other hand, it's true of all science; every last bit of whatever conclusion science comes to is inductive (of course, not that I think there are methods of proof at all, as you well know :P  ).   So, to say suddenly "Ah, but that's inductive!" is to blow the whistle on all of science's conclusions, and undo any assumption you have ever made using science.  We have, many times, agreed that science makes assumptions on these observations.  So, in the event of my example, science would, just as it does anytime else, assume that what it has observed is indeed the case.

In the event you (or anyone else, for that matter) decides to drop the idea that science does make assumptions, but merely says "Ok, if observed enough, it is likely true".  Well, then, it is likely that there is a supernatural (note that this is just as much a statement of science as any other).  This does not need to be tested for, because you've already tested it.  For example, consider the following,

"I was hit by something.  It was, likely, not a car.  Therefore, it was, likely, a non-car"  Saying "That which hit you is not a car" is logically equivalent to saying "That which hit you is a non-car".  It follows quite nicely (I posit).

For the first (non-issue) item, why are you ruling out something happening without cause?  

(Insert segue here)
Your first statement was "that matter cannot be created physically...", and the second was "...that matter comes into existence".  Now, taking "physically" literally (either definition) this makes no sense.  Firstly, because no such observation has been made, and in fact physics allows for the creation of matter given enough energy being spent to that end.  

And when I read it the first few times, I thought it was the  meaning of physically as in "I am physically in Best Buy" (as opposed, perhaps, to their online store), and so those two statements would be contradictory if matter was created in the "physical" universe.  

Now, as for the other meaning I can think of, as in "in accordance with the (currently known) laws of physics", that is only a contradiction of the laws of physics, and not science or nature as a whole, so perhaps that is what you meant.  

Only then you turn around and say that "non-physical cause" = "supernatural cause"!  ("we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation")  This, of course, would massively fail to support your point given the latter definition of "physical".  

It would be senseless for me to pursue this any further until you resolve the above.  

Also, I ask for consistency in another area:  you claim "deduction" of the supernatural, and then (it seems) explicitly use induction to get there.   

P.S.  What about the "exports from another universe" hypothesis?  How could we eliminate that possibility, as we must for even your idea of science to contemplate the supernatural?   



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appolose said:
tombi123 said:
@appolose

I might be reading your posts wrong, but matter being created out of nothing is a prediction of Quantum Mechanics and happens all the time. In no way does it contradict science (only classical theories).

While that may be true, my scenario is a hypothetical one, one in which quantum mechanics is either impossible or unobserved.  I'm aiming to demonstrate the possibility of a supernatural explanation.

appolose, what do you actually mean by 'supernatural' explanation.  I'm assuming you mean God, but perhaps you don't.

I can tell you, again, that scientific theory correctly applied will never result in the explanation that the unknown is supernatural.  It simply can't. 

What you really need to understand is that any time scientific process comes up short (which happens all the time BTW) the anwer is predefined and exclusive - 'more data required as we have no consistent theory'.

That will always be the result.  The result will never be - 'must be supernatural'.

I guess, in a sense, the way to view it is that scientific process does not allow for anything other than an 'inconclusive evidence' or 'we have a theory' result.

You're positing a scenario which (even if the supernatural existed) would result in the answer 'inconclusive evidence'.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

This seems appropriate for the supernatural discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo



Final-Fan said:
appolose said:

No, it's fine.  If you're having trouble PM'ing, I'll do it out here.  No personal worries, either.

In any event,

I'll explain my statement of things not being able to create themselves (not that it matters to much since you're rolling with it, but I might as well): To say "This thing created itself" would imply that it existed before it existed (otherwise, how could it create itself unless it was around to create?), which is nonsense.

Now, I will clear this part up here and now: the second observation in the scenario is not a counter-observation.  A counter one (or, contradictory, whatever suits your fancy) would be "Matter can be created physically"  My 2nd observation does not have "physicall" in it, so it is not contradicting it.

As for how, then, I get anything out of it,

"So, then, how do I get the supernatural out of it if they don't actually contradict? By this: given that my 2nd observation involves the creation of matter, it follows that it had a means of creation (things cannot create themselves; that's illogical). And, since we've already established that things cannot physically be created, we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation. If the objection is raised that “Science is not supposed to conclude on the supernatural”, what then do we do? We cannot conclude that our 1st assumption is in error, because we do not have any counter-observations at hand (otherwise, that basic tenet of “If observed enough, it is assumed true” is contradicted), unlike my previous paragraph. You could say “well, I guess science has failed this time”, what does that actually mean? That doesn't solve the contradiction. No, the only thing left (I posit) is to throw away the objection that science cannot conclude on the supernatural."

In light of my explanation of how the two observations interact, I repost this, hopefully having given the clarity lacking from my example, for it lays out my case for the deduction of the supernatural.

"BUT WE'LL NEVER KNOW THAT unless you can somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.

Fully agreed.  As you note, my 2nd example moves towards that (my first one does at well, but it probably was not very clearly worded, so that may have been missed).

"The problem is that, not being gods, we cannot be sure that we have actually exhausted every possibility, every hypothesis, and every idea without mathematical proof, so instead of 'no physical cause' it should be 'no KNOWN cause'"

This is indeed true.  On the other hand, it's true of all science; every last bit of whatever conclusion science comes to is inductive (of course, not that I think there are methods of proof at all, as you well know :P  ).   So, to say suddenly "Ah, but that's inductive!" is to blow the whistle on all of science's conclusions, and undo any assumption you have ever made using science.  We have, many times, agreed that science makes assumptions on these observations.  So, in the event of my example, science would, just as it does anytime else, assume that what it has observed is indeed the case.

In the event you (or anyone else, for that matter) decides to drop the idea that science does make assumptions, but merely says "Ok, if observed enough, it is likely true".  Well, then, it is likely that there is a supernatural (note that this is just as much a statement of science as any other).  This does not need to be tested for, because you've already tested it.  For example, consider the following,

"I was hit by something.  It was, likely, not a car.  Therefore, it was, likely, a non-car"  Saying "That which hit you is not a car" is logically equivalent to saying "That which hit you is a non-car".  It follows quite nicely (I posit).

For the first (non-issue) item, why are you ruling out something happening without cause?  

(Insert segue here)
Your first statement was "that matter cannot be created physically...", and the second was "...that matter comes into existence".  Now, taking "physically" literally (either definition) this makes no sense.  Firstly, because no such observation has been made, and in fact physics allows for the creation of matter given enough energy being spent to that end.  

And when I read it the first few times, I thought it was the  meaning of physically as in "I am physically in Best Buy" (as opposed, perhaps, to their online store), and so those two statements would be contradictory if matter was created in the "physical" universe.  

Now, as for the other meaning I can think of, as in "in accordance with the (currently known) laws of physics", that is only a contradiction of the laws of physics, and not science or nature as a whole, so perhaps that is what you meant.  

Only then you turn around and say that "non-physical cause" = "supernatural cause"!  ("we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation")  This, of course, would massively fail to support your point given the latter definition of "physical".  

It would be senseless for me to pursue this any further until you resolve the above.  

Also, I ask for consistency in another area:  you claim "deduction" of the supernatural, and then (it seems) explicitly use induction to get there.   

P.S.  What about the "exports from another universe" hypothesis?  How could we eliminate that possibility, as we must for even your idea of science to contemplate the supernatural?   

For this non-issue, I would say that it is illogical to say something can be without cause.  For one, it can't create itself (as I noted above), and, for another, to say "It came into being without cause"  again implies existence before existence ("It came"?).  Also, no, quantum mechanics does not contradict this (a quantum flux is responsible for matter creation, not "nothing")

As for observing the inability to physically create matter; such an observation already has been made (possibly that's now overturned due to quantum mechanics, but this is a hypothetical situation, remember?).  In fact, it's the first law of thermodynamics (let's not confuse that with being contradicted by E=mc^2; it isn't (not that that is relevant right now)).  As I said before, once science observes something enough (in this case, the absence of a physical instigator) it assumes it's true (or says it's likely, for anyone who wants to change what we agreed science does).

"And when I read it the first few times, I thought it was the  meaning of physically as in "I am physically in Best Buy" (as opposed, perhaps, to their online store), and so those two statements would be contradictory if matter was created in the "physical" universe".

While I'm not sure if I'm understanding you here correctly, I offer this: To be created "in" does not imply to be created "by", if that answers your question.

"Only then you turn around and say that "non-physical cause" = "supernatural cause"!  ("we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation")  This, of course, would massively fail to support your point given the latter definition of "physical"".

I'm not sure of what you're getting at here, actually.  What definition of physical are you referring to?  My only goal here is to demonstrate that science can reach beyond the physical as an explanation, which would be, therefore, non-phsyical, which I am calling supernatural (It makes no difference if you want to haggle over the meaning of the word "supernatural"; that isn't the core point here and never was).

"Also, I ask for consistency in another area:  you claim "deduction" of the supernatural, and then (it seems) explicitly use induction to get there".

Deduction from the assumptions of science; you can make a deduction off of any two propositions, regardless of the truth value of them.


"P.S.  What about the "exports from another universe" hypothesis?  How could we eliminate that possibility, as we must for even your idea of science to contemplate the supernatural?"

We have detected no physical cause: if it were exported from another universe, and we found no trace of a physical transportation.  Then, science does what it always does; assumes that there is no means of physical transportation.  That doesn't rule out another universe, mind you, but it does mean that there was a means of non-physical transportation, so the supernatural as an explanation is present either way.

More simply, we could just pretend that, in this scenario, multiple universes have been mathematically ruled out.



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ManusJustus said:
This seems appropriate for the supernatural discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

Nice try, but although I think we all know what appolose is trying to get his foot in the door for, his argument does not involve any specific entity.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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appolose said:

"P.S.  What about the "exports from another universe" hypothesis?  How could we eliminate that possibility, as we must for even your idea of science to contemplate the supernatural?"

We have detected no physical cause: if it were exported from another universe, and we found no trace of a physical transportation.  Then, science does what it always does; assumes that there is no means of physical transportation.  That doesn't rule out another universe, mind you, but it does mean that there was a means of non-physical transportation, so the supernatural as an explanation is present either way.

More simply, we could just pretend that, in this scenario, multiple universes have been mathematically ruled out.

This is not what science does. It only assumes that there is a cause that we have not found yet



Final-Fan said:
ManusJustus said:
This seems appropriate for the supernatural discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

Nice try, but although I think we all know what appolose is trying to get his foot in the door for, his argument does not involve any specific entity.

It doesnt have to be specific, any supernatural claim is fallacious.



Kudos appolose. From now on I would only argue with one at a time and not the stupid bottom feeders that try to kick you while you're down.
It might make things a little less stressful.

But boy if they aren't VOCAL



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appolose said:

For this non-issue, I would say that it is illogical to say something can be without cause.  For one, it can't create itself (as I noted above), and, for another, to say "It came into being without cause"  again implies existence before existence ("It came"?).  Also, no, quantum mechanics does not contradict this (a quantum flux is responsible for matter creation, not "nothing")

As for observing the inability to physically create matter; such an observation already has been made (possibly that's now overturned due to quantum mechanics, but this is a hypothetical situation, remember?).  In fact, it's the first law of thermodynamics (let's not confuse that with being contradicted by E=mc^2; it isn't (not that that is relevant right now)).  As I said before, once science observes something enough (in this case, the absence of a physical instigator) it assumes it's true (or says it's likely, for anyone who wants to change what we agreed science does).

"And when I read it the first few times, I thought it was the  meaning of physically as in "I am physically in Best Buy" (as opposed, perhaps, to their online store), and so those two statements would be contradictory if matter was created in the "physical" universe".

While I'm not sure if I'm understanding you here correctly, I offer this: To be created "in" does not imply to be created "by", if that answers your question.

"Only then you turn around and say that "non-physical cause" = "supernatural cause"!  ("we are left with only 1 option: a non-physical creation")  This, of course, would massively fail to support your point given the latter definition of "physical"".

I'm not sure of what you're getting at here, actually.  What definition of physical are you referring to?  My only goal here is to demonstrate that science can reach beyond the physical as an explanation, which would be, therefore, non-phsyical, which I am calling supernatural (It makes no difference if you want to haggle over the meaning of the word "supernatural"; that isn't the core point here and never was).

"Also, I ask for consistency in another area:  you claim "deduction" of the supernatural, and then (it seems) explicitly use induction to get there".

Deduction from the assumptions of science; you can make a deduction off of any two propositions, regardless of the truth value of them.

"P.S.  What about the "exports from another universe" hypothesis?  How could we eliminate that possibility, as we must for even your idea of science to contemplate the supernatural?"

We have detected no physical cause: if it were exported from another universe, and we found no trace of a physical transportation.  Then, science does what it always does; assumes that there is no means of physical transportation.  That doesn't rule out another universe, mind you, but it does mean that there was a means of non-physical transportation, so the supernatural as an explanation is present either way.

More simply, we could just pretend that, in this scenario, multiple universes have been mathematically ruled out.

1a.  You said the first observation was "matter cannot be created physically".  

1b.  (I don't think this could possibly be an "observation" in the way we ought to be using it here, but I'll pretend it is for 2-6.)  
2.  You said that the second observation was "matter is being created" (that ends up in the physical realm, I presume)
3.  You said that these two observations are not contradictory.  
4a.  "physically" may mean simply that it exists
4b.  "physically" may refer to the idea that it complies with the laws of physics
4c.  I don't think another meaning makes sense, because if you were trying to say e.g. that it is not possible for a being or force of this universe to do it but it was done anyway, that is a contradiction because acting in this universe makes it "of this universe" IMO
5.  In the case of 4a, the two observations are contradictory because obviously matter has entered into physical existence
6.  In the case of 4b, the second observation would simply mean that the laws of physics are wrong and science must go back to the drawing board for an explanation.  
7.  Regarding induction/deduction:  
7a.  You said "it lays out my case for the deduction of the supernatural."  I presume this meant "... by science" in accordance with your overall stated objective in this discussion.  
7b.  You then used induction.  
7c.  Even if you are correct that using induction is in accordance with science, you are wrong to claim that you have used science to DEDUCE anything when you have in fact INDUCED something instead.  You may, however, deduce a successful induction based on that, but that would simply be saying QED (or worse, repeating yourself), now wouldn't it?  
8.  Regarding that another universe could be considered "supernatural":
8a.  Good point, but are you satisfied then that science could never ever ever ever conclude that God existed because of the possibility of other universes messing with us?  
9.  Regarding the idea of pretending that other universes have been mathematically ruled out:  
9a.  Didn't the original challenge involve your scenario 'being hypothetical but possible'?  If so, this means that I cannot accept pretended restrictions such as this -- you would have to actually rule out the possibility of other universes, since we don't know whether what you would pretend is possible.  1a.  You said the first observation was "matter cannot be created physically".  

1b.  (I don't think this could possibly be an "observation" in the way we ought to be using it here, but I'll pretend it is for 2-6.)  

2.  You said that the second observation was "matter is being created" (that ends up in the physical realm, I presume)

3.  You said that these two observations are not contradictory.  

4a.  "physically" may mean simply that it now exists in actuality.  
4b.  "physically" may refer to the idea that it complies with the laws of physics.  
4c.  I don't think another meaning makes sense, because if you were trying to say e.g. that it is not possible for a being or force of this universe to do it but it was done anyway, that is a contradiction because acting in this universe makes it "of this universe" IMO

5.  In the case of 4a, the two observations are contradictory because obviously matter has entered into physical existence

6.  In the case of 4b, the second observation would simply mean that the laws of physics are wrong and science must go back to the drawing board for an explanation.  

7.  Regarding induction/deduction:  
7a.  You said "it lays out my case for the deduction of the supernatural."  I presume this meant "... by science" in accordance with your overall stated objective in this discussion.  
7b.  You then used induction.  
7c.  Even if you are correct that using induction is in accordance with science, you are wrong to claim that you have used science to DEDUCE anything when you have in fact INDUCED something instead.  You may, however, deduce a successful induction based on that, but that would simply be saying QED (or worse, repeating yourself), now wouldn't it?  

8.  Regarding that another universe could be considered "supernatural":
8a.  Good point, but are you satisfied then that science could never ever ever ever conclude that God existed because of the possibility of other universes messing with us (lacking mathematical proof of their nonexistence)?  

9.  Regarding the idea of pretending that other universes have been mathematically ruled out:  
9a.  Didn't the original challenge involve your scenario 'being hypothetical but possible'?  If so, this means that I cannot accept pretended restrictions such as this -- you would have to actually rule out the possibility of other universes, since we don't know whether what you would pretend is possible.  

10.  1b is actually pretty important, just a reminder.  [edit:  Note that I fixed 1a to 1b.] 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!