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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

Finding a bird fossil the predates dinosaurs (dating methods being another unfalsifiable thing) would not disprove that birds evolved from dinosaurs.  It could simply mean that it happened to evolve from something else during that time frame, and not contradict the current belief that the fossil record shows that todays birds are descendents of dinosaurs.

As for evolution being observed today, yes, I would agree that that is science (not that I think it is actually evolution, mind you).

Sadly, I do not know of any good 90's music :(

Whoa there

Slow down

If evolution being observed today isn't evolution, then what the Hell is it?

Yeah, I've caught a lot of flack for this in the past :/

Basicially, by evolution, I'm not referring to the overly-broad "descent with modification" - we've know that a child will look different from its parents for a good while now.  Nor do I mean by evolution even natural selection combined with random mutation (I acknowledge both of those as true).  By evolution, I mean the idea that, given natural selection and random mutation, a bird could eventually have a fish for a descendent.

Okay hold up

Hold up

Let's say I take a breed of dog and from these dogs over hundreds of accelerated generations I breed them into animals the size of deer, which bear no outward resemblance to their ancestors and require very different kinds of nutrition in order to function.

Is that evolution?



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Rath said:
appolose said:

I'm going to quote myself from an older thread here,

As much as I hesitate to say this, it's too often ignored: evolution (at least, most of the idea) is wholly unscientific. Observability, testability, repeatability, and falsifiability are the hallmarks of the scientific method, and not much of these can be applied to a large amount of evolutionary work (as much of it deals with the past). So much of it can't be called a theory, and certainly not science.

That doesn't necessarily destroy any certainty in evolution, but as many of you are moved to demonstrate the definition of theory, this mightIn any evense be a good thing to know.

One might call it a "historical" theory (in the branch of historical science), but that would be quite different than the word "theory" in the phrase "theory of gravity".

On a side note, I would like to point out that science can easily come to a supernatural conclusion; if we have two contradicting sets of well-established observations, then some kind of non-physical explanation would be needed to reconcile the two of them (can't have a contradiction).  Therefore, it would not be in the interest of science to throw out the supernatural as a possibility (which is where ID is concerned (albeit, when it goes historically, it no longer is science, either)).

I believe you have failed to understand the meaning of these words in some cases.

Observability. This does not mean that a process has to be observed as it occurs, if historical evidence of something exists observing that historical evidence is still observation. It is without a doubt that science is based purely on observed evidence - whether this evidence is observed as soon as the process has taken place or whether the evidence is observed millions of years after is inconsequential.

The fossil record would be considered historical evidence, yes?  In that notion, yes, I would naturally agree that the fossil record exists.  What does not, however is any hypothesis I come up with that includes it.  That is the unobservable part

Testability. The ability to make and test predictions does not necessarily require the process to be actively observable. In the case of evolution the predictions include things such as that more advanced organisms will be primarily in the newer layers and less advanced organisms in the lower layers. Or as Rubang pointed out the chromosone thing.

Evolutionary theory does not predict that more advanced organisms are found in newer layers; rather, it is observed that they are (no contesting there from me).  The theory does say that they are desendents of the lower life forms, and that is the untestability.

Repeatability. The same evidence of evolution has often been found in different places at different times. That is repetition.

This is the same case of the first two; there are things we find in the fossil record, yes, but those things are not the evolutionary theory.  Rather, the explanation of them is.

Falsifiability. Evolution is very falsifiable. Proving that genes do not mutate would demolish the theory of evolution.

I disagree; random mutation is a proposed mechanism of evolutionary theory.  Disproving it would not disprove the explanation of the fossil record.

Also science cannot come to a supernatural conclusion ever. If there are two contradicting sets of well observed observations (which interestingly enough sounds a lot like quantum and classical physics) scientists will work out to find out how and why they contradict. God is not falsifiable and as such can not ever be considered science.

By continuing to work out why they contradict, I suppose that would imply that it is believed one set of of observations must be false, which would contradict the basic principles of science (which is, it is assumed that, given enough observation, repetition etc, the theory is true).  As for God not being falsifiable; while that may be true, it is irrelevant as science must conclude it anyways.

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz

Appolose if you reject evolutionary theory because it's the summation of observed phenomena rather than the observations themselves then you have to reject every scientific theory known to man.



Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

Finding a bird fossil the predates dinosaurs (dating methods being another unfalsifiable thing) would not disprove that birds evolved from dinosaurs.  It could simply mean that it happened to evolve from something else during that time frame, and not contradict the current belief that the fossil record shows that todays birds are descendents of dinosaurs.

As for evolution being observed today, yes, I would agree that that is science (not that I think it is actually evolution, mind you).

Sadly, I do not know of any good 90's music :(

Whoa there

Slow down

If evolution being observed today isn't evolution, then what the Hell is it?

Yeah, I've caught a lot of flack for this in the past :/

Basicially, by evolution, I'm not referring to the overly-broad "descent with modification" - we've know that a child will look different from its parents for a good while now.  Nor do I mean by evolution even natural selection combined with random mutation (I acknowledge both of those as true).  By evolution, I mean the idea that, given natural selection and random mutation, a bird could eventually have a fish for a descendent.

Okay hold up

Hold up

Let's say I take a breed of dog and from these dogs over hundreds of accelerated generations I breed them into animals the size of deer, which bear no outward resemblance to their ancestors and require very different kinds of nutrition in order to function.

Is that evolution?

Likely not (although the different nutritional needs may imply something more than just little outward resemblence).

I do think that, given your scenario, you can get an animal to have considerably different looking descendents.  What I do not think is that random mutation of a gene can produce every other genetic blueprint (bird-to-fish, for example).  In other words (perhaps less accurate ones), I believe there is a "limit" to what random mutation can do.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

Finding a bird fossil the predates dinosaurs (dating methods being another unfalsifiable thing) would not disprove that birds evolved from dinosaurs.  It could simply mean that it happened to evolve from something else during that time frame, and not contradict the current belief that the fossil record shows that todays birds are descendents of dinosaurs.

As for evolution being observed today, yes, I would agree that that is science (not that I think it is actually evolution, mind you).

Sadly, I do not know of any good 90's music :(

Whoa there

Slow down

If evolution being observed today isn't evolution, then what the Hell is it?

Yeah, I've caught a lot of flack for this in the past :/

Basicially, by evolution, I'm not referring to the overly-broad "descent with modification" - we've know that a child will look different from its parents for a good while now.  Nor do I mean by evolution even natural selection combined with random mutation (I acknowledge both of those as true).  By evolution, I mean the idea that, given natural selection and random mutation, a bird could eventually have a fish for a descendent.

Okay hold up

Hold up

Let's say I take a breed of dog and from these dogs over hundreds of accelerated generations I breed them into animals the size of deer, which bear no outward resemblance to their ancestors and require very different kinds of nutrition in order to function.

Is that evolution?

Likely not (although the different nutritional needs may imply something more than just little outward resemblence).

I do think that, given your scenario, you can get an animal to have considerably different looking descendents.  What I do not think is that random mutation of a gene can produce every other genetic blueprint (bird-to-fish, for example).  In other words (perhaps less accurate ones), I believe there is a "limit" to what random mutation can do.

Why is there a limit?



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

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Khuutra said:
Appolose if you reject evolutionary theory because it's the summation of observed phenomena rather than the observations themselves then you have to reject every scientific theory known to man.

I don't reject evolution because I don't think it science, I reject it because I think it is wrong (much like my own young-earth creationism, except opposite, of course).  I also reject your description of it as the summation of observed phenomena, per some reasons I think I gave above.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Khuutra said:

Okay hold up

Hold up

Let's say I take a breed of dog and from these dogs over hundreds of accelerated generations I breed them into animals the size of deer, which bear no outward resemblance to their ancestors and require very different kinds of nutrition in order to function.

Is that evolution?

Likely not (although the different nutritional needs may imply something more than just little outward resemblence).

I do think that, given your scenario, you can get an animal to have considerably different looking descendents.  What I do not think is that random mutation of a gene can produce every other genetic blueprint (bird-to-fish, for example).  In other words (perhaps less accurate ones), I believe there is a "limit" to what random mutation can do.

In what sense is there a limit?

As to the second.... How do you reject it? How can you, as a Christian, justify the rejection of the working knowledge of man? How can you hold to literal Young Earth Creationism?



appolose said:
Khuutra said:
Appolose if you reject evolutionary theory because it's the summation of observed phenomena rather than the observations themselves then you have to reject every scientific theory known to man.

I don't reject evolution because I don't think it science, I reject it because I think it is wrong (much like my own young-earth creationism, except opposite, of course).  I also reject your description of it as the summation of observed phenomena, per some reasons I think I gave above.

You can order T-shirts from the Mythbusters website that say "I reject your reality and substitute my own" on them. It's supposed to be scientific, but if could apply for you too.



The_vagabond7 said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

Finding a bird fossil the predates dinosaurs (dating methods being another unfalsifiable thing) would not disprove that birds evolved from dinosaurs.  It could simply mean that it happened to evolve from something else during that time frame, and not contradict the current belief that the fossil record shows that todays birds are descendents of dinosaurs.

As for evolution being observed today, yes, I would agree that that is science (not that I think it is actually evolution, mind you).

Sadly, I do not know of any good 90's music :(

Whoa there

Slow down

If evolution being observed today isn't evolution, then what the Hell is it?

Yeah, I've caught a lot of flack for this in the past :/

Basicially, by evolution, I'm not referring to the overly-broad "descent with modification" - we've know that a child will look different from its parents for a good while now.  Nor do I mean by evolution even natural selection combined with random mutation (I acknowledge both of those as true).  By evolution, I mean the idea that, given natural selection and random mutation, a bird could eventually have a fish for a descendent.

Okay hold up

Hold up

Let's say I take a breed of dog and from these dogs over hundreds of accelerated generations I breed them into animals the size of deer, which bear no outward resemblance to their ancestors and require very different kinds of nutrition in order to function.

Is that evolution?

Likely not (although the different nutritional needs may imply something more than just little outward resemblence).

I do think that, given your scenario, you can get an animal to have considerably different looking descendents.  What I do not think is that random mutation of a gene can produce every other genetic blueprint (bird-to-fish, for example).  In other words (perhaps less accurate ones), I believe there is a "limit" to what random mutation can do.

Why is there a limit?

'Cause the Bible says so!

Eh, yes, that is actually why I think so.

But let me explain (as you are no doubt quite stupefied by the apparent stupidity of that statement): I have come to accept the Bible as true on a basic philisophical reason (as opposed to empirical, I mean).



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz

Your response to my post was not only very short but I couldn't make sense of it. You're saying that the fossil record is observable evidence but at the same time it is not observable evidence? That doesn't make any sense.