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Forums - General - Apparently the recession changed my political views

My views haven't changed that much. I do think I become slightly more socially conservative as I age though. The recession just reinforced my political views on leftist economics. Its obvious that the free market system in its current state isn't working, so its no suprise that it got us in this mess and more of it wont get us out any sooner.

Its really sad for humanity that the free market has become so prevalent. 50 years ago we had huge breakthroughs in science, like putting people on the Moon and developing nuclear technology, and America's poor were as wealthy as ever.  But now the poor only get poorer and scientific advancement is put on the back burner as we push for entertainment technology, which is fun and all but it doesnt propel mankind forward.  I had always hoped that we would put people on Mars, develop Cold Fusion, or do something else big, but until them I'll have to be content with my Wii, XBox 360, and IPod :)  I can play pretend lthat people are on Mars, so its kind of the same.

I still dont see how some people think that giving billions of dollars to wealthy CEOs is somehow considered socialism. Socialism is the government taking ownership of the banks, not politicians giving money to their elite buddies in need.



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ManusJustus said:

My views haven't changed that much. I do think I become slightly more socially conservative as I age though. The recession just reinforced my political views on leftist economics. Its obvious that the free market system in its current state isn't working, so its no suprise that it got us in this mess and more of it wont get us out any sooner.

Its really sad for humanity that the free market has become so prevalent. 50 years ago we had huge breakthroughs in science, like putting people on the Moon and developing nuclear technology, and America's poor were as wealthy as ever.  But now the poor only get poorer and scientific advancement is put on the back burner as we push for entertainment technology, which is fun and all but it doesnt propel mankind forward.

I still dont see how some people think that giving billions of dollars to wealthy CEOs is somehow considered socialism. Socialism is the government taking ownership of the banks, not politicians giving money to their elite buddies in need.

In the last 100 years, the free market has gotten less and less free, and all the the things we say will happen to a society when you do that, you have pointed out.

Why do you then feel we need to become less free.

The free market works. The US market of late has not. But that's because it's not a free market.



ManusJustus said:

My views haven't changed that much. I do think I become slightly more socially conservative as I age though. The recession just reinforced my political views on leftist economics. Its obvious that the free market system in its current state isn't working, so its no suprise that it got us in this mess and more of it wont get us out any sooner.

Its really sad for humanity that the free market has become so prevalent. 50 years ago we had huge breakthroughs in science, like putting people on the Moon and developing nuclear technology, and America's poor were as wealthy as ever.  But now the poor only get poorer and scientific advancement is put on the back burner as we push for entertainment technology, which is fun and all but it doesnt propel mankind forward.  I had always hoped that we would put people on Mars, develop Cold Fusion, or do something else big, but until them I'll have to be content with my Wii, XBox 360, and IPod :)  I can play pretend lthat people are on Mars, so its kind of the same.

I still dont see how some people think that giving billions of dollars to wealthy CEOs is somehow considered socialism. Socialism is the government taking ownership of the banks, not politicians giving money to their elite buddies in need.

How is that sad for humanity? It's fine to hate the free market, but it seems to help the world. Just look at how many countries are becoming more wealthy and adopting better living conditions for its people because they trade in the worldwide economy (and thus the free market). We're having huge breakthroughs in science today all the time. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that America's poor were as wealthy as ever. It seems they were as poor as ever, there were just a lot more people living under poverty. The poor getting poorer is mainly due to inflation, which hurts everyone, and it's not like the poor were ever living it up anyways. I don't even know where this whole science complaint is coming from. Putting a man on Mars isn't as easy as just complaining about it enough to fix it.



 

 

MontanaHatchet said:
ManusJustus said:

My views haven't changed that much. I do think I become slightly more socially conservative as I age though. The recession just reinforced my political views on leftist economics. Its obvious that the free market system in its current state isn't working, so its no suprise that it got us in this mess and more of it wont get us out any sooner.

Its really sad for humanity that the free market has become so prevalent. 50 years ago we had huge breakthroughs in science, like putting people on the Moon and developing nuclear technology, and America's poor were as wealthy as ever.  But now the poor only get poorer and scientific advancement is put on the back burner as we push for entertainment technology, which is fun and all but it doesnt propel mankind forward.  I had always hoped that we would put people on Mars, develop Cold Fusion, or do something else big, but until them I'll have to be content with my Wii, XBox 360, and IPod :)  I can play pretend lthat people are on Mars, so its kind of the same.

I still dont see how some people think that giving billions of dollars to wealthy CEOs is somehow considered socialism. Socialism is the government taking ownership of the banks, not politicians giving money to their elite buddies in need.

How is that sad for humanity? It's fine to hate the free market, but it seems to help the world. Just look at how many countries are becoming more wealthy and adopting better living conditions for its people because they trade in the worldwide economy (and thus the free market). We're having huge breakthroughs in science today all the time. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that America's poor were as wealthy as ever. It seems they were as poor as ever, there were just a lot more people living under poverty. The poor getting poorer is mainly due to inflation, which hurts everyone, and it's not like the poor were ever living it up anyways. I don't even know where this whole science complaint is coming from. Putting a man on Mars isn't as easy as just complaining about it enough to fix it.

It's not even that the "Poor are getting poorer."

I mean would you rather be poor today or go back in time 50 years and be poor.

The poor person today has a better life then they did back then.

 

The gini coeeficients of just about every country get bigger, this is true... but it doesn't mean the poor is getting poorer.  More wealth is being created... and the people who are creating the wealth are the rich and middle class... and therefore get a higher share of the wealth.

 

The biggest jump in the ginicoeeficinet was the dot com boost.

Meanwhile under bush during what was considered bad economic times.... the Gini coeeficient grew at it's slowest pace since WW2...

furthermore the gaps between the rich and poor, gender and race has SHRUNK during this gloabl recession... because their is wealth dropping off... banking wealth.

In 2007 The gini Cooefficent for the US was 45... in 2008 it dropped to 40.

In good economic times Gini Coeficients rise.  In poor economic times they shrink... because the poor NEED to make a certain amount. 



highwaystar101 said:

now I think it's more 80% capitalist and 20% socialist. Anyway, they think the reccession changed my views.

"COMMUNISM IS A TEMPORARY SETBACK ON THE ROAD TO FREEDOM." -  Liberty Prime

 

 




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My views have become more developed over the last few years but they haven't changed much in position. I still believe in capitalism to keep people reaching for the top, socialism to keep them falling off the bottom.



TheRealMafoo said:
Orca_Azure said:

Still, i'd like to see what mafoo says so i can stand on the opposite side

haha, you know where I stand.

What I think is interesting over the last few years. Is everything I have said and HappySqurriel has said about the effects of socialism have come true (economically), and yet all it did is make people thing the world must have been different then how they saw it, because the socialist techniques didn't work.

No, all the last two years have done is strengthen my views about libertarianism. Not weaken them.

Wow I have a hard time accepting that you are the same as me... a libertarian.  Just going to have to disagree with you on that.  Really I would like to know your extensive views if you ever want to message them to me. 

OP: Not everything is so black and white.  Capitalism and socialism are radical extremes on the economic ideology.  There is such thing as middle ground.  Nor is one opinion bad and the other good.  As much as Americans and extreme right would love to make everyone think that Socialism is the worst thing in the world (just like they do with terrorism) it is simply a competing ideology created and crafted by that of Karl Marx. 

So don't always see such things as so negative or positive.  It's nothing but competing ideologies.  Media loves to explode things into divisive polarization.  Whether it be the extreme right or extreme left, they need it to be divisive to get the MAINLY MODERATE America to jump one way or another.  So yea just learn a little about both sides and the middle ground and you'll be fine.

 

 



@Zucas. Capitalism and socialism are only extremes when applied exclusively. A more moderate economy (look at Western Europe for what I mean) takes many aspects of both.

And before the Americans rip my head off for calling Western Europe moderate rather than Socialist - I would look at how America stands compares to the rest of the developed world on the economic scale. The rest of the western world is more socialised than you are.



Concerning Poor Getting Poorer:

The business class was developing wealth (just as you claim they do now) in 1960 America too, but minimum wage and worker's income were a lot higher.

Concerning Scientific Achievement:

What will our descendants look back on and say that we have accomplished in the last 40 years?  They will say in 1973 they invented the internet, in 1969 they put a man on the moon, in 1961 they put a man in space, in 1951 they developed nuclear power sources, in 1945 they developed nuclear fission, in the 1940's they invented the computer, before that the Big Bang Theory, Theory of General and Special Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, television, and so forth.

...

Graphs and Tables:

Value of the
minimum wage
 Value of the
minimum wage
YearCurrent
dollars
Constant
(1996)
dollars1
YearCurrent
dollars
Constant
(1996)
dollars1
1955 $0.75 $4.39 1983 3.35 5.28
1956 1.00 5.77 1984 3.35 5.06
1957 1.00 5.58 1985 3.35 4.88
1958 1.00 5.43 1986 3.35 4.80
1959 1.00 5.39 1987 3.35 4.63
1960 1.00 5.30 1988 3.35 4.44
1961 1.15 6.03 1989 3.35 4.24
1962 1.15 5.97 1990 3.80 4.56
1963 1.25 6.41 1991 4.25 4.90
1964 1.25 6.33 1992 4.25 4.75
1965 1.25 6.23 1993 4.25 4.61
1966 1.25 6.05 1994 $4.25 $4.50
1967 1.40 6.58 1995 4.25 4.38
1968 $1.60 $7.21 1996 4.75 4.75
1969 1.60 6.84 1997 5.15 5.03
1970 1.60 6.47 1998 5.15 4.96
1971 1.60 6.20 1999 5.15 4.85
1972 1.60 6.01 2000 5.15 4.69
1973 1.60 5.65 2001 5.15 4.56
1974 2.00 6.37 2002 5.15 4.49
1975 2.10 6.12 2003 5.15 4.39
1976 2.30 6.34 2004 5.15 4.28
1977 2.30 5.95 2005 5.15 4.14
1978 2.65 6.38 2006 5.15 4.04
1979 2.90 6.27 2007 5.85 4.41
1980 3.10 5.90 2008 6.55  
1981 $3.35 $5.78 2009 7.25  
1982 $3.35 $5.78



You do realize your charts are pretty off base right?

 

1) Minimium wage... why? 

The incomes of the bottom income group has increased 80% between 1991 and 2005.  Less people are making minimium wage then ever... including less poor people. 

2)  More then half of the people in the top 1% in 1996 were no longer in the top 1% by 2005.  More then half the people in the lowest bracket had moved out of it... with 5.3% of those people being in that same top 1%.  

3)   The top 20%'s income has actually dropped against the bottom 20% recently. 

4) The recent economic indicators seem to suggest the richest people are actually going to take an even harder hit... as can be seen by the Gini Coeefcient rocketing down for the first time ever....

5) You aren't taking included any taxes.

6) According to the US Census Beueru the total percentage of income of the top 5% has stayed flat from 88 to 04.