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Forums - General - Take some personal philosophy tests! Are you intellectually coherent?

Rath on 11 September 2009

@Kasz. I don't believe in a deterministic universe either so the two would not be acting in exactly the same way, both would make different choices (without strong proof one way or the other, as classical physics acts deterministically and quantum physics acts probabilistically I'm making the assumption that free-will (or at least a lack of determinism) exists - essentially I'm a libertarian (in the physics sense - not the political)).

And indeed you would be killing Chester, however another separate and by now different Chester would live on in the other 'Truman' world - their experiences would diverge at the point of the cloning. Before or at the point of cloning however their experiences both follow the same illusion of continuity.

Excuse any drunkenness on this post though - mates 20th Bday so not all of it may make sense. (I feel there may be far too many parentheses)

I'll probably re-write this post in the morning =P



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Slimebeast on 11 September 2009
The_vagabond7 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
@habfan. Thats not really creepy at all if you think of what 'you' (as in your mind) really are. Its just a state of a certain set of chemicals and electrical signals, thus destroying yourself and recreating yourself perfectly would be just as much a continuation of what you are as staying in your current body.

So if you cloned yourself via a dupe ray or say error in the telereformer... both you's would be you?

 

Yes.

 

And interestingly enough there would be no 'real' me, to both it would seem a continuous line of consciousness. Obviously from the point of cloning onwards they would diverge and be different people - but neither more 'me' than the other.

I would say this is only right from the outside observer, but from your perspective definitely not. If you stepped into a teleporter, it made a bunch of noises, and then nothing happened and you were all like "Hey, what's the deal? Is it broken?" and the guy operating said "eh....just a hiccup, it's working ok...in fact you're already there, it's just something on our end. But don't worry, I've got a special tool for situations like this." And you turn around to find him loading a gun and he says "no, no, turn back around, no need to look over here. Just keep staring straight ahead and I'll have this little situation fixed in a jiffy". Do you willingly stand there and say "excellent, I'll be there shortly...so shortly that I am already there!" Or do you get the hell out because the guy is about to blow your fucking brains out.


Which is why I say that my "self" as it were is not ONLY the material make up, but the persistence of that material make up. If that persistence ends, I end, even if there is a completely identical person somewhere else.

This was so funny! And I agree of course.



Kasz216 on 11 September 2009
Rath said:
@Kasz. I don't believe in a deterministic universe either so the two would not be acting in exactly the same way, both would make different choices (without strong proof one way or the other, as classical physics acts deterministically and quantum physics acts probabilistically I'm making the assumption that free-will (or at least a lack of determinism) exists - essentially I'm a libertarian (in the physics sense - not the political)).

And indeed you would be killing Chester, however another separate and by now different Chester would live on in the other 'Truman' world - their experiences would diverge at the point of the cloning. Before or at the point of cloning however their experiences both follow the same illusion of continuity.

Excuse any drunkenness on this post though - mates 20th Bday so not all of it may make sense. (I feel there may be far too many parentheses)

I'll probably re-write this post in the morning =P

You believe that two identical people with two identical brains and consioisnessess will make different choices in two identical situations?

I can not understand on what logical context you could come up with this opinion.



Rath on 11 September 2009

With free-will they would definitely diverge - free-will is the ability to make a different choice when presented with a situation.



Slimebeast on 11 September 2009

@Rath how can u believe in free will when you dont believe in a soule?



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Kasz216 on 11 September 2009
Rath said:
With free-will they would definitely diverge - free-will is the ability to make a different choice when presented with a situation.

What scientifically points you to free will?  When all other things point everything having a formulatic outcome?

I mean... all scientific studies seem to greatly point to the contrary. 

Identical and Fraternal twins who have been seperated at birth often make the same choices in drastically different circumstances.

Descisions are based on a combination of DNA and conditioning in the enviroment.

 

Free Will goes in the face of the current scientific model.



SciFiBoy on 11 September 2009
Slimebeast said:
@Rath how can u believe in free will when you dont believe in a soule?


the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies = free will (internet definition)

so...how does that mean souls are also real? 



Slimebeast on 11 September 2009
SciFiBoy said:
Slimebeast said:
@Rath how can u believe in free will when you dont believe in a soule?


the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies = free will (internet definition)

so...how does that mean souls are also real? 


I dunno.



Rath on 11 September 2009

Quantum physics strongly indicate a non-deterministic universe. In a non-deterministic universe free-will is at least possible - though currently there is no strong evidence in favour of either it or pessimistic compatabilism.



Slimebeast on 11 September 2009
Rath said:
Quantum physics strongly indicate a non-deterministic universe. In a non-deterministic universe free-will is at least possible - though currently there is no strong evidence in favour of either it or pessimistic compatabilism.

I believe that field of science is far too immature to draw conclusions on that level.