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Forums - General - Healthcare Trigger Mechanism a Great Idea

TheRealMafoo said:
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Did you miss the "Obama will not be the next Castro because he does not have time on his side"?

No, the US can not turn into Cuba over the next 8 years. But it can over the next 50.

Yeah I read what you said about having time on his side, but that means you think Obama wants to create a Fidel Castro-esque state in the first place. I can assure you he wants the USA to be more like Europe and not like Cuba. If you gave him 50 years I think you would end up with Europe2.0 where private industry by far and away larger than the public industry, as opposed to socialist Cuba.

I think he wants to be a dictator. The difference in what he want the US to be and what Castro wants Cuba to be are academic.

Castro has the power to make Cuba anything he wants it to be. This is what Obama wants. What he makes it is not important. Giving a man that power, is.

I've struggled with this issue in regards to Obama (I did with Bush as well).  There is no doubt that he is a narcissist and he has rocketed past the normal checkpoints that slow people down on their path to the Presidency.  He seems to view himself as someone always capable of doing more (well intentioned imo) and the only place higher that he can go from here is to become a dictator.  But the leap to "actively strives to be a dictator" is a hard one for me to sign on to.

I think subconsciously he desires it...but then so do I.  Who would run for the office if they didn't feel like they could do a better job?

Personality wise he fits the bill, but I think it is a leap to actually say he is actively seeking it.  I'm not sure if you were going that far or not, but I'm not really on board that idea either way.  For now he seems like an overly ambitious, exceedingly naive, and disturbingly inexperienced leader that is trying to enact his entire agenda in the first two years (perhaps so he can play golf the last two years =P ).

Beyond that I think it is reasonable to be cautious and to watch what he does closely (like you would any president), but I don't think raising alarms is really called for at all so far.



To Each Man, Responsibility
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Kasz216 said:

Honestly the US is judged "poorly" on healthcare because of two stats.

First is infant mortality rate. The US performs worse in this because the US counts all infants. While every other country disregards infants if they're born too small, or weigh to little, or are too sick.

The US counts everybody born as a person. Other countries don't.

The second is average life expectancy. Which is effected by things like the US much higher murder rate.

When it comes to life expectancies for diseases. Nobody beats the USA. As that OCED report listesd... the US is top in cardiovasculiar and cancer. The worlds two biggest killers.

If the healthcare system truley didn't reach most people... our survivial rates wouldn't be that good.  Our system does reach everybody.  It just costs everyone differently based on your decisions.  Any talk of "treatment differences" should note that reports show that the UK has significant "treatment differences" based on wealth despite it being "universal"... because the poor are unhealthy and such things are overinflated.

Infant mortality I agree with. Life expectancy I don't. Having a few more murders per 100,000 people isn't going to have any statistically significant effect on life expectancy. The fact that your healthcare system has failed to provide increased life expectancy isn't good.

Also your system doesn't provide adequete healthcare to those who are not insured, the reason for your excellent rates of cancer is because for those covered by insurance you have by far the most thorough screening of any country in the world - almost to the point of excess.


Also new source (WHO) for cardiovascular disease. http://www.heartstats.org/datapage.asp?id=744

 

Will post more later.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:

Honestly the US is judged "poorly" on healthcare because of two stats.

First is infant mortality rate. The US performs worse in this because the US counts all infants. While every other country disregards infants if they're born too small, or weigh to little, or are too sick.

The US counts everybody born as a person. Other countries don't.

The second is average life expectancy. Which is effected by things like the US much higher murder rate.

When it comes to life expectancies for diseases. Nobody beats the USA. As that OCED report listesd... the US is top in cardiovasculiar and cancer. The worlds two biggest killers.

If the healthcare system truley didn't reach most people... our survivial rates wouldn't be that good.  Our system does reach everybody.  It just costs everyone differently based on your decisions.  Any talk of "treatment differences" should note that reports show that the UK has significant "treatment differences" based on wealth despite it being "universal"... because the poor are unhealthy and such things are overinflated.

Infant mortality I agree with. Life expectancy I don't. Having a few more murders per 100,000 people isn't going to have any statistically significant effect on life expectancy. The fact that your healthcare system has failed to provide increased life expectancy isn't good.

Also your system doesn't provide adequete healthcare to those who are not insured, the reason for your excellent rates of cancer is because for those covered by insurance you have by far the most thorough screening of any country in the world - almost to the point of excess.


Also new source (WHO) for cardiovascular disease. http://www.heartstats.org/datapage.asp?id=744

 

Will post more later.Forum

Ah but here is the problem with that.

It's not adjusted.  The OCED stats were adjusted for age and other such stats. 

The OCED stats measured exactly how likely you were to survive when you went in... considering your condition.  Which of course is effected by a lto more then healthcare.

Also those stats are from 2002 making them more out of date then the OCED.  Also for that matter the USA still does really well there outperforming the UK.

As for Life expectancy there is a LOT more too it then healthcare.  Your a fool if you think otherwise.

Example. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/outliers.htm

Changing America's culture would do far more for it's healthcare then changing it's medical system.  There is a reason why Italy ranks near the top for Life expectancy yet a very large amount of italians are unsatisfied with there care, there hosptials are overlfowing... and it's overall medicore care.

There CHD is very low.  Not because of healthcare... but because they live healthy lifestyles where extended family live together.



TheRealMafoo said:
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Did you miss the "Obama will not be the next Castro because he does not have time on his side"?

No, the US can not turn into Cuba over the next 8 years. But it can over the next 50.

Yeah I read what you said about having time on his side, but that means you think Obama wants to create a Fidel Castro-esque state in the first place. I can assure you he wants the USA to be more like Europe and not like Cuba. If you gave him 50 years I think you would end up with Europe2.0 where private industry by far and away larger than the public industry, as opposed to socialist Cuba.

I think he wants to be a dictator. The difference in what he want the US to be and what Castro wants Cuba to be are academic.

Castro has the power to make Cuba anything he wants it to be. This is what Obama wants. What he makes it is not important. Giving a man that power, is.

I don't think Obama wants to be a Castro-esque charachter at all, I think he is much more like a timid Clement Attlee. Infinately more comparisons can be drawn to Clement Attlees' government of 1940's Britain, than it can to Fidel Castros' Cuba.

 



highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Did you miss the "Obama will not be the next Castro because he does not have time on his side"?

No, the US can not turn into Cuba over the next 8 years. But it can over the next 50.

Yeah I read what you said about having time on his side, but that means you think Obama wants to create a Fidel Castro-esque state in the first place. I can assure you he wants the USA to be more like Europe and not like Cuba. If you gave him 50 years I think you would end up with Europe2.0 where private industry by far and away larger than the public industry, as opposed to socialist Cuba.

I think he wants to be a dictator. The difference in what he want the US to be and what Castro wants Cuba to be are academic.

Castro has the power to make Cuba anything he wants it to be. This is what Obama wants. What he makes it is not important. Giving a man that power, is.

I don't think Obama wants to be a Castro-esque charachter at all, I think he is much more like a timid Clement Attlee. Infinately more comparisons can be drawn to Clement Attlees' government of 1940's Britain, than it can to Fidel Castros' Cuba.

 

let me ask you this.

If you had two kings. One was a loving king that made sure all his people were fed and clothed, and one was a evil king that killed and raped people as he sees fit. Would you see those two places as the same government?

I sure would.

Obama is not going to turn us into Cuba. He would love to have the power to do so however. He has tried to move more power to his office then anyone before him. He has talked about a federal police force, has moved the census burrow under him. He tells more people what they are allowed to earn. He tried to tell banks what that can take as payments on loans, and when they would not listen to him, he tried to change the law so they had to. He is creating a new "legal regime" to house people as long as he wants. All the overstepping of Bush, he has not overturned. He now wants the power he condemned when he ran for office.

He wants to do what he wants to do, and if any law gets in his way, it's seen as nothing more then a roadblock that needs to be removed. Not as a good thing put into place to protect the people of this country from a president.

The only thing that would keep him from becoming a dictator, is he doesn't have enough time to change enough laws. Sadly, all his work will put the starting position of the next guy that much closer (just like Bush did before Obama), and i am sure the next guy will want to be a dictator as well.

All the weapons we have to stop that, we keep giving away in the form of more executive power.



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HappySqurriel said:
NinjaguyDan said:

The the whole idea of a trigger mechanism is total bullshit.  
Why do I say that?  
I'm glad you asked.
The way I see it, given the current debate over health care reform, in the mid to late 19th century vernacular, "that trigger has done been pulled".

From what I've heard, $400,000,000,000 (yes FOUR HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS) a year are siphoned out of the system for executive pay (must be nice to get money you haven't WORKED for)  and dividends to stockholders.

I posted this list in another thread, these are JUST the CEOs of the six worst offenders:

Stephen J. Hemsley UnitedHealth CEO
2007 Compensation $13.2 million
2008 Compensation $3,241,042
Total Value of Unexercised Stock Options $744,232,068---WTF?!?!?!?
2009 Options Exercise $127,001,281


Edward Hanway CIGNA CEO
Five-Year Compensation, as of April 30, 2008
$120.51 million
Total Value of Unexercised Stock Options
$28,881,000


Michael McCallister Humana CEO
2007 Compensation $10.3 million
2008 Compensation $1,017,308
Five-Year Compensation Total $15.1 million
Total Value of Unexercised Stock Options $60,865,194
2006 Options Exercise $22,294,710


Ronald A. Williams Aetna CEO
2007 Compensation $23 million
2008 Compensation $24,300,112
Total Value of Unexercised Options $194,496,797


Allen Wise Coventry CEO
2004 Compensation $13,052,799
2006 Sale of Stock $14,458,251
2006 Options Exercised $2,895,000
2005 Sale of Stock $46,410,695
2005 Options Exercised $6,709,564
2004 Sale of Stock $12,826,756
2004 Options Exercised $4,798,000


Angela Braly WellPoint CEO
2007 Compensation $9,094,271
2008 Compensation $9,844,212
2006 Sale of Stock $4,858,585
2006 Options Excerise $4,566,124

(Then add in the pay and perks for all of the junior and senior executive parasites plus stockholder dividends)

 Now, I'll ask YOU a question: how is that right?  Those people have to be absolute sociopaths to think that they desreve what they're getting paid.

It looks like a ponzi scheme to me.  The health care system is riddled with parasites.
Under a government run single-payer system those expenses are eliminated thus freeing up FOUR HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

If insurance company profit and CEO bonuses are the reason for the high healthcare costs why does medicare and medicaid cost (roughly) the same amount per person covered as private insurance?

In reality-land the statistics tell us that the cost of insurance company profit and executive bonuses are (roughly) offset by the inefficiency of a public system and the core problems with the cost in the American healthcare system lie elsewhere.

I can answer your question in one word:

FRAUD

by for-profit institutions.

Types of Medical Fraud

"Phantom Billing" - Billing for tests not performed.

Performing inappropriate or unnecessary procedures.

Charging for equipment/supplies never ordered.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for new equipment but providing the patient used equipment.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for expensive equipment but providing the patient cheap equipment.

A drug or equipment supplier completing a Certificate of Medical Necessity (CMN) instead of the physician.

"Reflex testing" - Automatically running a test whenever the results of some other test fall within a certain range, even though the reflex test was not requested by a physician.

"Defective Testing" - When a test or part of a test was not performed because of technical trouble (ie: insufficient or destroyed sample, machine malfunction) but is billed for anyway.

"Code Jamming" - Laboratories inserting or "jamming" fake diagnosis codes to get Medicare/Medicaid coverage.

Offering free services or supplies in exchange for your Medicare or Medicaid number.

"Unbundling" - Using two or more Current Procedural Terminology ("CPT") billing codes instead of one inclusive code for a defined panel where rules and regulations require "bundling" of such claims. Submitting multiple bills, in order to obtain a higher reimbursement for tests and services that were performed within a specified time period and which should have been submitted as a single bill.

"Double Billing" — charging more than once for the same service, for example by billing using an individual code and again as part of an automated or bundled set of tests.

"Up Coding" - Inflating bills by using diagnosis billing codes that indicate the patient experienced medical complications and/or needed more expensive treatments. (eg., billing for complex services when only simple services were performed, billing for brand-named drugs when generic drugs were provided, listing treatment as having been for a more complicated diagnosis than was actually the case.)

"Phantom Employees" - Expensing employees or hours worked that do not exist.

"Improper Cost Reports" — Submitting false cost reports seeking higher Medicare reimbursements than permitted by actual facts.

Providing substandard nursing home care and seeking Medicare reimbursement.



Switch: SW-5066-1525-5130

XBL: GratuitousFREEK

NinjaguyDan said:
HappySqurriel said:

If insurance company profit and CEO bonuses are the reason for the high healthcare costs why does medicare and medicaid cost (roughly) the same amount per person covered as private insurance?

In reality-land the statistics tell us that the cost of insurance company profit and executive bonuses are (roughly) offset by the inefficiency of a public system and the core problems with the cost in the American healthcare system lie elsewhere.

I can answer your question in one word:

FRAUD

by for-profit institutions.

Types of Medical Fraud

"Phantom Billing" - Billing for tests not performed.

Performing inappropriate or unnecessary procedures.

Charging for equipment/supplies never ordered.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for new equipment but providing the patient used equipment.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for expensive equipment but providing the patient cheap equipment.

A drug or equipment supplier completing a Certificate of Medical Necessity (CMN) instead of the physician.

"Reflex testing" - Automatically running a test whenever the results of some other test fall within a certain range, even though the reflex test was not requested by a physician.

"Defective Testing" - When a test or part of a test was not performed because of technical trouble (ie: insufficient or destroyed sample, machine malfunction) but is billed for anyway.

"Code Jamming" - Laboratories inserting or "jamming" fake diagnosis codes to get Medicare/Medicaid coverage.

Offering free services or supplies in exchange for your Medicare or Medicaid number.

"Unbundling" - Using two or more Current Procedural Terminology ("CPT") billing codes instead of one inclusive code for a defined panel where rules and regulations require "bundling" of such claims. Submitting multiple bills, in order to obtain a higher reimbursement for tests and services that were performed within a specified time period and which should have been submitted as a single bill.

"Double Billing" — charging more than once for the same service, for example by billing using an individual code and again as part of an automated or bundled set of tests.

"Up Coding" - Inflating bills by using diagnosis billing codes that indicate the patient experienced medical complications and/or needed more expensive treatments. (eg., billing for complex services when only simple services were performed, billing for brand-named drugs when generic drugs were provided, listing treatment as having been for a more complicated diagnosis than was actually the case.)

"Phantom Employees" - Expensing employees or hours worked that do not exist.

"Improper Cost Reports" — Submitting false cost reports seeking higher Medicare reimbursements than permitted by actual facts.

Providing substandard nursing home care and seeking Medicare reimbursement.

Do you honestly believe that fraud and corruption are unique of private industry, or that the government is somehow less corrupt? Do you really believe that bridges to nowhere, hundreds of million dollar airports that service dozens of people a month, and 10,000% cost overruns on projects by the government are not caused by corruption?



HappySqurriel said:
NinjaguyDan said:
HappySqurriel said:

If insurance company profit and CEO bonuses are the reason for the high healthcare costs why does medicare and medicaid cost (roughly) the same amount per person covered as private insurance?

In reality-land the statistics tell us that the cost of insurance company profit and executive bonuses are (roughly) offset by the inefficiency of a public system and the core problems with the cost in the American healthcare system lie elsewhere.

I can answer your question in one word:

FRAUD

by for-profit institutions.

Types of Medical Fraud

"Phantom Billing" - Billing for tests not performed.

Performing inappropriate or unnecessary procedures.

Charging for equipment/supplies never ordered.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for new equipment but providing the patient used equipment.

Billing Medicare/Medicaid for expensive equipment but providing the patient cheap equipment.

A drug or equipment supplier completing a Certificate of Medical Necessity (CMN) instead of the physician.

"Reflex testing" - Automatically running a test whenever the results of some other test fall within a certain range, even though the reflex test was not requested by a physician.

"Defective Testing" - When a test or part of a test was not performed because of technical trouble (ie: insufficient or destroyed sample, machine malfunction) but is billed for anyway.

"Code Jamming" - Laboratories inserting or "jamming" fake diagnosis codes to get Medicare/Medicaid coverage.

Offering free services or supplies in exchange for your Medicare or Medicaid number.

"Unbundling" - Using two or more Current Procedural Terminology ("CPT") billing codes instead of one inclusive code for a defined panel where rules and regulations require "bundling" of such claims. Submitting multiple bills, in order to obtain a higher reimbursement for tests and services that were performed within a specified time period and which should have been submitted as a single bill.

"Double Billing" — charging more than once for the same service, for example by billing using an individual code and again as part of an automated or bundled set of tests.

"Up Coding" - Inflating bills by using diagnosis billing codes that indicate the patient experienced medical complications and/or needed more expensive treatments. (eg., billing for complex services when only simple services were performed, billing for brand-named drugs when generic drugs were provided, listing treatment as having been for a more complicated diagnosis than was actually the case.)

"Phantom Employees" - Expensing employees or hours worked that do not exist.

"Improper Cost Reports" — Submitting false cost reports seeking higher Medicare reimbursements than permitted by actual facts.

Providing substandard nursing home care and seeking Medicare reimbursement.

Do you honestly believe that fraud and corruption are unique of private industry, or that the government is somehow less corrupt? Do you really believe that bridges to nowhere, hundreds of million dollar airports that service dozens of people a month, and 10,000% cost overruns on projects by the government are not caused by corruption?

I would trust the government over private concerns anyday. With the government I have ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES who are answerable to the voters. Eventually it balances out. (The 2010 primaries will be VERY interesting to say the least. Moderate/Progressive STEAMROLLER)

Who do I have to help me deal with the private concerns?  LAWYERS!  (LOOK OUT!!!! TORT REFORM!!! OOOOH NOOOO!!!)



Switch: SW-5066-1525-5130

XBL: GratuitousFREEK

Bureaucracy has no accountability. It is a cancer that needs to grow until it bankrupts countries.

Government must enforce morality and protect its borders. That is it.



Repent or be destroyed

Gentlemen, I submit you you, Medicaid and Medicare. I also submit to you the UK and Canadian Healthcare systems. People waiting for months even years to have a simple procedure done, elderly and chronically ill people being placed at the bottom of list for expensive medical treatments. Overworked and underpaid doctors not doing a good job, A lack of doctors because the pay does not justify the time and money put into education. Do you really think, given the history of Medicaid and Medicare, that the US government can do a better job than the private sector? Let's not forget, the private sector is riddled with horrible strangling legislation and regulation from the very entity that wants to "save" it?



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Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!