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Forums - General - Move over water boarding. Introducing water dousing.

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`Professor Popsicle' and the CIA

Winnipeg researcher surprised to learn his work was used to develop `water dousing' technique
Aug 28, 2009 04:30 AM

The Canadian Press

WINNIPEG–A declassified CIA memo suggests the spy agency consulted research by two Canadians when developing standards for an interrogation tactic called "water dousing."

Gordon Giesbrecht, a University of Winnipeg professor known locally as "Professor Popsicle," said he only recently found out a chapter highlighting his research on cold-water immersion in the book Wilderness Medicine is one of two Canadian sources listed in the 2005 memo.

Water dousing involves exposing alleged terrorists to cold water for extended periods. It is one of 20 CIA-sanctioned interrogation techniques that can be used on a detainee to "maximize his feeling of vulnerability and helplessness, and reduce or eliminate his will to resist our efforts to obtain critical intelligence," the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency memo states.

The reference to Giesbrecht's book chapter is found in the memo's appendix, which lists the medical limits for each technique.

"That's an unfortunate use of the information, because there's no question – we have the ability to be very, very uncomfortable for a very, very long time (in cold water) with no medical problem. And it's untraceable too." Giesbrecht said yesterday.

The reference notes that water dousing should be stopped if the detainee is showing signs of hypothermia, and that "death can result from prolonged (i.e., six hours) exposure to 15 C water, two hours at 10 C, 1 hour at 5 C."

Those numbers are from a Transport Canada report Survival In Cold Water, which is also listed as a reference. Chris Brooks of Kanata, Ont., wrote the manual years ago to try to improve the odds of sailors and fishermen lost at sea.

Brooks told a newspaper that he was "flabbergasted" his work was used by the CIA.

A second top-secret CIA memo, which was also declassified this week, states that water dousing should not last more than 20 minutes when the interrogators are using 5 C water. That limit is raised to 40 minutes for 10 C water, and 60 minutes for 15 C water.

"These standards are derived from submersion studies, and represent two-thirds of the time at which hypothermia is likely to develop in healthy individuals submerged in water, wearing light clothing," the memo reads.

Giesbrecht said what upsets him most is evidence that water dousing was actually used on people.

He pointed to a report from the International Committee of the Red Cross that suggests at least seven detainees encountered the tactic – usually by having cold water poured on them, though three claimed they were immersed.

"We jokingly refer to some of our studies as being torturous, and do it in a joking manner because people can always get out of it.

"I guess when you move that into a scenario where you don't have the chance to get out, it would certainly stick it in that category (of torture)," he said.

"Being on the memo isn't as upsetting as knowing they were doing this kind of stuff."

He added he could only recall three occasions during the hundreds of water immersion studies he's conducted where someone has asked to end the experiment early.

"I'm already unimpressed by the fact that waterboarding and things like that are being done. Now this just falls under the same category for me."



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So he admits "we have the ability to be very, very uncomfortable for a very, very long time (in cold water) with no medical problem". Not seeing a problem here ...like at all....

Are we really going to use the standard that they can't be "uncomfortable" when being interrogated?

Another article I saw recently was debating whether or not we could lie to detainees in interrogations.

Kind of makes me wonder if they have a right to a Slushy Machine, cable TV, a lazy boy, and a personal masseuse as well.

Maybe we can trick them into thinking they've gone to heaven to get them to talk? Or would that be torture because they would be dissapointed when they find out their not really dead? Oh and I suppose that would be lying to them...so that is out too...

The interrogation issue has become a joke at this point. With the Cheney memos being released recently and unequivocally and undeniably proving Cheney's assertions that EITs and only EITs were effective in getting information people might as well just say what they really mean. That they are against interrogations of any worthwhile kind and would rather leave us open to attack than trouble their pretty little heads with the horrors of a mildly uncomfortable terrorist.

Sorry if I'm in a particularly blunt mood this afternoon but lets get real. Care-bears, lolipops, and rainbows are more intimidating then the liberally envisioned interrogation methodology. That's not even meant facetiously, people actually say that playing children's music is "going to far".



To Each Man, Responsibility



Like all things, we need a balance on this issue. Terrorists shouldn't get any kind of sympathy, but things like waterboarding are too much.



 

 

MontanaHatchet said:
Like all things, we need a balance on this issue. Terrorists shouldn't get any kind of sympathy, but things like waterboarding are too much.


The problem is, it is used on suspected terrorists. They should be treated no different to suspected criminals (US citizens); meaning they have rights. In the UK you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Physical torture isn't acceptable to use on innocent people. I would consider putting people into almost freezing water for prolonged periods, physical torture.



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Seems like fun to me.



Akvod said:

Seems like fun to me.


I know you weren't being serious, but your flippancy remined me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOStoGd5GZw&feature=fvw

 



tombi123 said:


I know you weren't being serious, but your flippancy remined me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOStoGd5GZw&feature=fvw

 

Young Turks? Fuck them.



Akvod said:
tombi123 said:


I know you weren't being serious, but your flippancy remined me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOStoGd5GZw&feature=fvw

 

Young Turks? Fuck them.

I meant Mancow's opinion changing from waterboarding is harmless to waterboarding is torture, in the space of about 6 seconds...



tombi123 said:
Akvod said:
tombi123 said:


I know you weren't being serious, but your flippancy remined me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOStoGd5GZw&feature=fvw

 

Young Turks? Fuck them.

I meant Mancow's opinion changing from waterboarding is harmless to waterboarding is torture, in the space of about 6 seconds...

IDK, if you think my joke was a caricature of his opinion, then sure. I haven't really been reading up on this stuff to hold an proper opinion.