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Forums - General - Judaism was not originally monotheistic, Jesus was not originally loving.

Gnizmo said:
There are no other gods recognized by Judaism because that is how God commands it. Never once does the bible put forth that the others don't exist. It repeatedly states (and demonstrates) the other gods don't matter at all, and only God should be recognized and worshiped. As such the followers only believe in one god, and thus it is monotheistic.

God does not kill any other gods in the bible though. He is the Lord of Hosts, the King of Kings, and the God of gods. That is, he runs the whole business. It is explained multiple times through-out the bible. I recommend reading Exodus, Judges, Samuel 1&2, and Kings 1&2 to get a better idea.

To say Jesus was not loving because he is a racist isn't even really an argument. Even though he looks at them as dogs he still helps her. He still helps the beggars, cripple, and tax collectors who were born into Judaism which others did not. Further, he also helped promote people who had converted into Judaism rather than being born into it as equals rather than second class citizens (putting it nicely). This really undermines the racist undertone you were trying to establish before as it was really looking down on anyone who was unwilling to convert to Judaism.

God commands that only he be worshipped. God is a jealous god after all, jealous because he doesnt want the other gods to be worshipped.  There would be no reason for him to be jealous if the other gods didnt exist, nor would he judge or consul or kill gods, as the Bible plainly states, gods that do no exist.  Jealousy, by the way, is a human emotion that humans gave their early gods, as religion developed in all societies, negative human emotions are cast to the wayside.  Its no coincidence that most modern religions have a message of love and most ancient religions have a message of nationality and vengence.

Also let me remind you that the Bible has been edited vigorously throughout the centuries.  Priests make the Bible what they want, and add things they desire and eliminate things they do not.  That said, the fact that such contradictions that are present in the Bible (for instance, Jesus's birth is different in two stories from the Apostles).

Jesus called a woman a dog, and initially refused to heal her child because of her ethnicity!  You cant BS your way around that.  The woman was not a criminal, a beggar, or a tax collector (I guess you are arguing that these people are comparable to dogs), her only crime was not being born a Jew.  In case you didnt get the metaphor, Jesus is the master, the nation of Israel is the children, and other nations are the dogs.  Hypothetically speaking, if you went back in time and asked Jesus to heal you, he would ignore you and call you inferior because of your race.  Not the Jesus people go to worship on Sundays.



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ManusJustus no one listens to your rants anymore.

Come to the console forums and talk about games instead.



nordlead said:
nice, picking individual verses, thinking that they contradict the rest of the Bible and creating a post on it. People may have made you think God was all kind and gentle, but it quite clearly says in the Bible over and over again that God hates sin, and he wiped out the entire world with a flood. So, I don't see a few wars to wipe out an evil nation as a contradiction in any way.

As for your comment about the new testament being written decades later, it was pretty much written 60 years later by people with first hand accounts. Just saying there are contradictions does not mean there are. You didn't point any contradictions out above within the Bible. You just pointed out that there are contradictions with your preconceived notion of Judaism and Christianity.

Well, I couldnt really post entire books of the Bible could I.  God is all kind and gentle NOW, he was not in the past.  God's personality changed.  In reality God didnt change, the people who worshipped him did, as well as what they wanted out of him.  I dont recall Jesus or the New Testament commanding babies to be bashed against rocks or women to be taken as loot when the men of a village are slain.

60 years later is a long time, especially during that time period when almost all first hand accounts were dead.  People didn't live that long back then.  In 60 years, almost everyone who saw Jesus and remembered his teachings was dead, so there is a lot of room for authors to change the story.

If you want to read the contradictions in the Bible, just read it.  For instance the books of Luke and Mathew have different stories of Jesus birth.  The contradicts iteself when it says Jesus was born during the reign of Herod and ten years after Herod's death, that Joseph traveled from Nazareth to Bethleham for a census and that Joseph stopped in Bethlehem on a trip from Egypt to Nazareth, one has wise men and angel messengers, and one doesnt.

But lets not forget the real reason Jesus was born in Bethleham, and why the Biblical authors argued for it, because King David was born in Bethleham and the Jews believed the messiah would be born in the same town.  That is why Mathew and Luke, who 'should' be as first hand as you can get, have differing stories when they try to place Jesus of Nazereth's birth in Bethleham.



ManusJustus said:


God commands that only he be worshipped. God is a jealous god after all, jealous because he doesnt want the other gods to be worshipped.  There would be no reason for him to be jealous if the other gods didnt exist, nor would he judge or consul or kill gods, as the Bible plainly states, gods that do no exist.  Jealousy, by the way, is a human emotion that humans gave their early gods, as religion developed in all societies, negative human emotions are cast to the wayside.  Its no coincidence that most modern religions have a message of love and most ancient religions have a message of nationality and vengence.

Also let me remind you that the Bible has been edited vigorously throughout the centuries.  Priests make the Bible what they want, and add things they desire and eliminate things they do not.  That said, the fact that such contradictions that are present in the Bible (for instance, Jesus's birth is different in two stories from the Apostles).

Jesus called a woman a dog, and initially refused to heal her child because of her ethnicity!  You cant BS your way around that.  The woman was not a criminal, a beggar, or a tax collector (I guess you are arguing that these people are comparable to dogs), her only crime was not being born a Jew.  In case you didnt get the metaphor, Jesus is the master, the nation of Israel is the children, and other nations are the dogs.  Hypothetically speaking, if you went back in time and asked Jesus to heal you, he would ignore you and call you inferior because of your race.  Not the Jesus people go to worship on Sundays.

Monotheism is defined by the worship of one god. You should read my posts more carefully. You look less foolish when you do. I openly reference places the bible directly uses other gods, and explain what God's position amongst them, and on them is. He never once says you cannot know they exist. You cannot worship them however, and you cannot believe in them. By definition, that is monotheism. Your argument holds no water so far.

Your contradictions are immaterial to your topic title. If this is simply you attacking religion then the thread should be closed on the basis of trolling, and flame bait. Are you attacking religions, or attempting to debate two points?

Ghandi was also a racist. People, yourself included I would imagine, consider him to be kind and loving. Ones life is summed up by the entirety of their actions, and not select ones that support your view. It was also not because of her ethnicity, and actually because of her religion. Did you not read the story of the good Samaritan? It is about treating Jews of different races as equals rather than lesser members of the religion.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

ManusJustus said:

Jesus called a woman a dog, and initially refused to heal her child because of her ethnicity!  You cant BS your way around that.  The woman was not a criminal, a beggar, or a tax collector (I guess you are arguing that these people are comparable to dogs), her only crime was not being born a Jew.  In case you didnt get the metaphor, Jesus is the master, the nation of Israel is the children, and other nations are the dogs.  Hypothetically speaking, if you went back in time and asked Jesus to heal you, he would ignore you and call you inferior because of your race.  Not the Jesus people go to worship on Sundays.

"Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

How is this ignoring her? I think if read from the day, it shows the opposite of what your claiming. In the times when the bible was written, most every Jew thought non Jews were nothing more then animals. Some still do today, as do Muslims think this about non-Muslims. 

Jesus went around this normal convention, and healed her anyway. At least that's how I read the passage you posted. I don't believe in and god however, so for me, it's all made up.



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Gnizmo said:

Monotheism is defined by the worship of one god. You should read my posts more carefully. You look less foolish when you do. I openly reference places the bible directly uses other gods, and explain what God's position amongst them, and on them is. He never once says you cannot know they exist. You cannot worship them however, and you cannot believe in them. By definition, that is monotheism. Your argument holds no water so far.

Your contradictions are immaterial to your topic title. If this is simply you attacking religion then the thread should be closed on the basis of trolling, and flame bait. Are you attacking religions, or attempting to debate two points?

Ghandi was also a racist. People, yourself included I would imagine, consider him to be kind and loving. Ones life is summed up by the entirety of their actions, and not select ones that support your view. It was also not because of her ethnicity, and actually because of her religion. Did you not read the story of the good Samaritan? It is about treating Jews of different races as equals rather than lesser members of the religion.

When you have to make several references to my argument being wrong, it shows that you know that your argument is unable to do so alone.

My definition of monotheism is exact same definition as that of the Enlgish dicionary.  In monothiesm, God is the only god there ever was or ever will be.  You are confusing monotheism with monolatry, which is the worship of one god even though other gods exist.

No, I am quite aware of Ghandi's racism, and his view of blacks in particular.  Ghandi was a man though, and a great man for his time.  All men make mistakes and are partially bound by the social ideas of their time and environment.  However, for many, Jesus was not a man but God, and since many people believe God to be unfalliable and benevolent, it is entirely reasonable for me to bring up of an event where this is not the case (Jesus calling a woman a dog because of her ethnicity).



TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

Jesus called a woman a dog, and initially refused to heal her child because of her ethnicity!  You cant BS your way around that.  The woman was not a criminal, a beggar, or a tax collector (I guess you are arguing that these people are comparable to dogs), her only crime was not being born a Jew.  In case you didnt get the metaphor, Jesus is the master, the nation of Israel is the children, and other nations are the dogs.  Hypothetically speaking, if you went back in time and asked Jesus to heal you, he would ignore you and call you inferior because of your race.  Not the Jesus people go to worship on Sundays.

"Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

How is this ignoring her? I think if read from the day, it shows the opposite of what your claiming. In the times when the bible was written, most every Jew thought non Jews were nothing more then animals. Some still do today, as do Muslims think this about non-Muslims. 

Jesus went around this normal convention, and healed her anyway. At least that's how I read the passage you posted. I don't believe in and god however, so for me, it's all made up.

When the women first asked Jesus to heal her child, he ignored her.  Then the woman started asking the Disciples for help, which annoyed them to the point to where they went to Jesus and asked him to send her away.  As you say, Jesus does heal her in the end, but it is lacking of the 'uncoditional love of all mankind' idea that many people picture Jesus as having. 

Furthermore, even though this would be considered a good deed for many people in this time period, it is looked down on in our modern society. Which, I believe, supports my view of a relationship between the progression of religion and of the progression of humanity.



ManusJustus said:

When you have to make several references to my argument being wrong, it shows that you know that your argument is unable to do so alone.

My definition of monotheism is exact same definition as that of the Enlgish dicionary.  In monothiesm, God is the only god there ever was or ever will be.  You are confusing monotheism with monolatry, which is the worship of one god even though other gods exist.

No, I am quite aware of Ghandi's racism, and his view of blacks in particular.  Ghandi was a man though, and a great man for his time.  All men make mistakes and are partially bound by the social ideas of their time and environment.  However, for many, Jesus was not a man but God, and since many people believe God to be unfalliable and benevolent, it is entirely reasonable for me to bring up of an event where this is not the case (Jesus calling a woman a dog because of her ethnicity).

mon⋅o⋅the⋅ism [mon-uh-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA 
–noun the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

 From dictionary.com. I would like to know the exact Eglish dictionary you use? Judaism teaches there is only one god, and that is the Lord of Hosts. The bible shows other gods, but does not teach to believe in them. It references them as one of the many hosts of heavens that others call a god. Your argument holds no water.

 Jesus was not God. Your ignorance on the text you are attempting to speak about is quite obvious. At this point I am convinced you are trolling as you continue to ignore my arguments and repeat your inflammatory talking points. Jesus did not discriminate based on ethnicity. GHe discriminated based on religious beliefs. When she showed the proper reverence she was treated as an equal of the children of Israel, much like the good Samritan was. If you do not understand wahy the story of the good Samiritan is relevant then you have no business discussing this topic.

It is best you drop the illusion that you are discussing this with someone who believes in, or follows the bible as well. I have read it, but do not follow any religion that uses it. If you cannot provide facts and scripture to counter my arguments you will just look stupid as it will be quite clear you are arguing for ignorance. I am quite certain you are intelligent, so I ask that you post in a way that displays it.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

ManusJustus said:

Man created religion.  So its no suprise that man changes religion to meet his needs.  This goes along way to explain changes from ancient Judaism to Christianity, specifically a "Warrior God" who asks his followers to bash the babies of their enemies against rocks and to kill every man, woman, and child in cities they conquer, to a caring, loving God that is considered benevolent.

To further my point, I'll post Bible verses that are contradictory to what many Christians believe their religion represents.  In doing so, I will show that Judaism, and by relation Christianity, was not originally monotheistic and that Jesus was not initially the loving savior of mankind.

My goal is not to humiliate a group of believers, as you could make the same argument against any religion, my goal is to show hardened believers that religion is a creation of human society and that you should not use your religion to think lesser of those of other religions.  In the least, we should look at religion in a positive light in that its progression from malevolent, human-like gods to benevolent, perfect gods is a sign of humanities social progress through the ages.

...

Deuteronomy 13:  One of many instances of evil in the Old Testament.

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

God is always referred to as a wrathful one.  For crying out loud people back then were so awful and faithless, that he wiped out every human on the planet save for one family!  Clearly you do not know enough about Christianity or the Bible.  You just Cherry pick things to try and make ur point.

...

Mathew 15: Jesus calls a woman a dog and initally ignores a women's plea for help because she is of a different ethnicity.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not fair to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus is not calling the woman a dog, he is testing her faith.  Something quite common in religion, which you seem not to understand.

...

Judges 11Polytheism in the Bible.  God is recognized for the being the god of the Israel, but not the universal god of other nations.  Just as Yahweh gave land to the Hebrews, so do other gods provide land for their people.

Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the LORD our God shall drive out from before us, them will we possess.

Again, another misquote out of context.  Chemosh is the god of the Amorites, which does not truly exist and is made up.  The Amorites which have just been driven out, not the God of Israel, the true God.  Also Yahweh, originally denoted YHWH, is another word for God, the true God, not some other God.

"Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess."

...

Exodus 12: God will judge the gods of Egypt and shame them by killing children in their nation.  Even though God is more powerful than the gods of Egypt, the gods of Egypt still exist.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

He is not acknowledging they exist.  They don't and he knows that.  It is the foolish Egyptians who created these false gods.  He is saying that there is nothing Egypts gods can do, because they are nothing and do not truly exist.  He is trying to teach them this by showing their gods can do nothing to stop Him, again, because they do not exist.  This happens a lot of times in the Bible.  Prophets of God challenge prophets of Baal, for example, and God sends down a fire from the heavens while Baal never does anything.

...

Psalm 82: God consults with other gods, and eventually kills them so that he can inherit their nations.  Judaism becomes monotheistic as we think of the term today not because God is the only god, but because God killed the other gods.

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

He is referring to the rulers on earth.  Men with which he has given power over other nations, yet they have fallen from their ways.  "gods" in this context is just a term referring to the power he has given certain men to rule over other men.

"God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers."

...

And if that isn't enough, one should also bring to light:

- There are also instances of the other gods in Israel's pantheon still being mentioned in the Bible, even though its followers attempted to omit such instances when they changed from polytheistic to monothiestic.  Examples of this include the goddess of Wisom being mentioned and being created before the Earth, and God beign angry at the River and Sea (God isnt actually upset with the a river, these were gods of ancient Israel who were mistranslated was mistranslated). 

- Many books of the New Testament having conflicting stories (such as Jesus's birth) and being written decades after Jesus lived, providing ample time for changes to be made to the original message.  Show me some of this supposed conflicting stories.

- Pagan's influence on modern Christiniaty, from Hades to Christmas Trees and the Easter Bunny. 

- Apollonius of Tyana, who lived a hundred years before Christinianity (edited), was a son of god, born to a virgin, preformed miracles, and ascended to Heaven.  Jesus shares similar characteristic to many other figures, some who predate him by thousands of years, such as Horus, Mithra, Attis, Dionysus, etc. Lol, that's rich.  Get any proof other than made up propoganda?

- Ebionite Christianity, an earlier form of Christianity than the Pauline (Paul's version of Christianity) form we follow today, that held onto Judaism's rules and regarded Jesus as a messiah and not an actual diety. 

- Marcion Christianity, another early form of Christianity that solved the problem of evil not with Satan (Hades), but by considering the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament as different beings, one evil and one good.  Started by a single man whom taught out of his own made up teachings and ideas.  He would be no different than a scientist today making up the religion of Scientology.

- Baal, an ancient god, changing from a diety into the demom Beelzebub (from Baal Zebub).  Baal was never a real god.  He was made up by ignorant humans.  Beelzebub is a true demon though.  Probably influenced the humans to believe falsely in Baal, which would perfectly explain the similarities.

FAIL! Seriously, you buy into any kind of crap you hear without actually investigating it closely yourself, don't you?  Do you just google Christianity related propoganda and absorb it all without thinking?  Seriously, dude.  Try to use the Bible in your defence some more.  I'll shut you down in absolutely every attempt.



Yeah, but.... what's the problem with it all, ManusJustus?