By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sports - The Official Pro Wrestling Thread

The thing is, most performers come into the WWE with little experience. Back in the day, they developed and worked on their characters themselves. They had some degree of creative freedom; even if the suggestion came from elsewhere, they could take that idea and run with it. They would go all over the country fine-tuning and evolving their characters. Even if that character was over the top, parts of it still resonated with the wrestler themselves because it came from somewhere inside them. People can get into a persona where they have creative input much, much easier.

In the current WWE, however, they take a football player who has never wrestled a day in his life and say, "your name is going to be Borg Yargleson, we need a heel, so you're going to be a bad guy, and ... let's see, you're going to be an arrogant foreigner who hates America. There, done, now go practice headlocks. You have a lot of muscles so we'll call you up soon."

I mean, seriously, what the hell? When that fails, they'll send him down for awhile, then start all over again with something different. The WWE is centered on their creative staff, including the McMahon family, who think that they are the draw, not the wrestlers or the wrestling. It's only when a performer finds some success, starts to get some creative leverage, that they can begin to have input into their own character. CM Punk has that now, as does Chris Jericho and a few others. Randy Orton had it but lost it, as he's been wanting to be a heel for quite awhile--of course, his "character" has always been weak and is basically the same either way. It's a political game.

There are signs of hope, though. The fans basically forced the WWE to keep Daniel Bryan after they tried to bury him at Wrestle Mania. It was a stupid move that almost ruined Sheamus. Ziggler seems to have been allowed to develop his character into what he wants it to be, as I feel the whole "showoff" idea resonates with him. We also have Ambrose and Rollins, two actual wrestlers, getting something of a push right off the bat. I don't think even the WWE can mess up Ambrose, as he's going to have a nut-case character no matter what--you can't change that anymore than you could change Roddy Piper into Hulk Hogan.

Triple H's regime has some positive signs about it. I'm kind of optimistic, though I think we won't see wide-scale change while Vince is still the top dog.

The only real disappointment I have is that they continue to target models for the Diva's division when there are a TON of excellent female wrestlers in the indies, Japan, and Mexico. They could bring Haily Hatred or Mia Yim in tomorrow and the Diva's division would instantly double in quality. There is no excuse for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world having one of the worst female programs in the world.



Around the Network
pokoko said:
The thing is, most performers come into the WWE with little experience. Back in the day, they developed and worked on their characters themselves. They had some degree of creative freedom; even if the suggestion came from elsewhere, they could take that idea and run with it. They would go all over the country fine-tuning and evolving their characters. Even if that character was over the top, parts of it still resonated with the wrestler themselves because it came from somewhere inside them. People can get into a persona where they have creative input much, much easier.

In the current WWE, however, they take a football player who has never wrestled a day in his life and say, "your name is going to be Borg Yargleson, we need a heel, so you're going to be a bad guy, and ... let's see, you're going to be an arrogant foreigner who hates America. There, done, now go practice headlocks. You have a lot of muscles so we'll call you up soon."

I mean, seriously, what the hell? When that fails, they'll send him down for awhile, then start all over again with something different. The WWE is centered on their creative staff, including the McMahon family, who think that they are the draw, not the wrestlers or the wrestling. It's only when a performer finds some success, starts to get some creative leverage, that they can begin to have input into their own character. CM Punk has that now, as does Chris Jericho and a few others. Randy Orton had it but lost it, as he's been wanting to be a heel for quite awhile--of course, his "character" has always been weak and is basically the same either way. It's a political game.

There are signs of hope, though. The fans basically forced the WWE to keep Daniel Bryan after they tried to bury him at Wrestle Mania. It was a stupid move that almost ruined Sheamus. Ziggler seems to have been allowed to develop his character into what he wants it to be, as I feel the whole "showoff" idea resonates with him. We also have Ambrose and Rollins, two actual wrestlers, getting something of a push right off the bat. I don't think even the WWE can mess up Ambrose, as he's going to have a nut-case character no matter what--you can't change that anymore than you could change Roddy Piper into Hulk Hogan.

Triple H's regime has some positive signs about it. I'm kind of optimistic, though I think we won't see wide-scale change while Vince is still the top dog.

The only real disappointment I have is that they continue to target models for the Diva's division when there are a TON of excellent female wrestlers in the indies, Japan, and Mexico. They could bring Haily Hatred or Mia Yim in tomorrow and the Diva's division would instantly double in quality. There is no excuse for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world having one of the worst female programs in the world.

Sad with the Diva division is that they have the wrestlers.  They just decide to push the one's who don't know how to wrestle.  Then they leave cause wrestling isn't cut out for them.  Same thing happened when Mickie was still there, they'd abuse her, they'd always take the title off her, etc, but when after their diva experiment would fail they'd always have to put the title back on her cause she was one of the few who could wrestle.  Sad with Awesome Kong leaving too, she could have done great things there.  Ultimately the problem with WWE is that they're too big, they have too many business men trying to market everything.  Those "Did you know?" are so godamn annoying.  WWE needs a revolution and I doubt we'll see it anytime soon.  On another note I like the way NXT is set up and if it wasn't on odd times I'd so watch it.



What killed the Tag Team titles was the exaggeration of the top superstars.

For Example, if John Cena is facing 2-3-4 wrestlers in a gauntlet, hell they still have to cheat to beat him.

Back in the day... a 2 on 1 handicap match was a challenge even for a guy like Hulk Hogan.

Legion of Doom vs Hulk Hogan? Hulk Hogan would be screwed.

Heck, an awesome Tag Team could beat two superior solo stars in a tag match back in the day.


Now a days a heel will abandon the tag match and the face will beat the tag champs for the titles himself!


It's especially exacerbated by the lack of factions meaning that nobody really has anybodies back and tag teams just seem to appear out of nowhere.

What they need to do is start allowing wrestlers to be friends with each other in character... then have whoever ends up holding the belts vacate the title.

Hold a big tournament in which EVERYBODY wants the belts, and really wants them. Team most of the main eventers with a lesser superstar, and pair up two of them together, a face team like Cena and Sheamus, and have them lose to a tag team of lesser stars who win due to better communication and better teamwork.

Or a well placed Megaphone to the head. Preferably the first thing though.



Kasz216 said:
What killed the Tag Team titles was the exaggeration of the top superstars.

For Example, if John Cena is facing 2-3-4 wrestlers in a gauntlet, hell they still have to cheat to beat him.

Back in the day... a 2 on 1 handicap match was a challenge even for a guy like Hulk Hogan.

Legion of Doom vs Hulk Hogan? Hulk Hogan would be screwed.

Heck, an awesome Tag Team could beat two superior solo stars in a tag match back in the day.


Now a days a heel will abandon the tag match and the face will beat the tag champs for the titles himself!


It's especially exacerbated by the lack of factions meaning that nobody really has anybodies back and tag teams just seem to appear out of nowhere.

What they need to do is start allowing wrestlers to be friends with each other in character... then have whoever ends up holding the belts vacate the title.

Hold a big tournament in which EVERYBODY wants the belts, and really wants them. Team most of the main eventers with a lesser superstar, and pair up two of them together, a face team like Cena and Sheamus, and have them lose to a tag team of lesser stars who win due to better communication and better teamwork.

Or a well placed Megaphone to the head. Preferably the first thing though.

Turning the top guys superhuman didn't just kill the tag team division, it killed the entire mid-card.

There used to be a time when the US/IC Championships were desired.  Now the people who hold those belts are like designated jobbers for the people getting a push.  They lose night in and night out in non-title matches to people who have no interest in those belts.  It's ridiculous and dishonors the great champions of the past.

It's the same with tag teams, you're exactly right.  It used to be that the best tag teams were made up of guys who could hold their own in a singles match.  Now they're just places to put people who are out of favor or between pushes, with the impression that they are only in a team because they're too weak to compete any other way.  If they DO start to look like winners, they break them up immediately to give one a singles push.  As someone who grew up on NWA and WCW, I despise how the WWE handles tag teams now.  The best tag teams used to be specialists who were regarded very highly.  Now they're something of a joke.

As far as the superhuman thing goes, John Cena himself pretty much devalued the entire roster at one point.  He made everyone else looks so weak that they had to continually push brand new talent because he's already squashed everyone else.  I'm glad they moved away from that somewhat, though I fear Super Cena is going to make a return after WM.



Kane and Daniel Bryan beat The Prime Time Players blindfolded with one hand tied behind their backs a couple of weeks ago. Now, how can PTP get any respect after that?



Around the Network
d21lewis said:
Kane and Daniel Bryan beat The Prime Time Players blindfolded with one hand tied behind their backs a couple of weeks ago. Now, how can PTP get any respect after that?

They can't.  They're ruined.  The WWE continuously devalues it's own talent.  It's insane.  I do not understand it whatsoever.

In my opinion, if you want to make someone look strong, then you first make their opponent looks strong.  That way, it's far more impressive when they win.  Why do people talk about Muhammad Ali still today?  Because of Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Larry Holmes.  The NWA had a great tag division because on any given night you'd buy The Rock & Roll Express, the Road Warriors, The Midnight Express, or the Four Horsemen winning the belts.  The same with the WWE when they had all the great teams of the past.

It's going for cheap, short-term entertainment over long-term story-telling and drama.  It's beyond me why.



pokoko said:
Kasz216 said:
What killed the Tag Team titles was the exaggeration of the top superstars.

For Example, if John Cena is facing 2-3-4 wrestlers in a gauntlet, hell they still have to cheat to beat him.

Back in the day... a 2 on 1 handicap match was a challenge even for a guy like Hulk Hogan.

Legion of Doom vs Hulk Hogan? Hulk Hogan would be screwed.

Heck, an awesome Tag Team could beat two superior solo stars in a tag match back in the day.


Now a days a heel will abandon the tag match and the face will beat the tag champs for the titles himself!


It's especially exacerbated by the lack of factions meaning that nobody really has anybodies back and tag teams just seem to appear out of nowhere.

What they need to do is start allowing wrestlers to be friends with each other in character... then have whoever ends up holding the belts vacate the title.

Hold a big tournament in which EVERYBODY wants the belts, and really wants them. Team most of the main eventers with a lesser superstar, and pair up two of them together, a face team like Cena and Sheamus, and have them lose to a tag team of lesser stars who win due to better communication and better teamwork.

Or a well placed Megaphone to the head. Preferably the first thing though.

Turning the top guys superhuman didn't just kill the tag team division, it killed the entire mid-card.

There used to be a time when the US/IC Championships were desired.  Now the people who hold those belts are like designated jobbers for the people getting a push.  They lose night in and night out in non-title matches to people who have no interest in those belts.  It's ridiculous and dishonors the great champions of the past.

It's the same with tag teams, you're exactly right.  It used to be that the best tag teams were made up of guys who could hold their own in a singles match.  Now they're just places to put people who are out of favor or between pushes, with the impression that they are only in a team because they're too weak to compete any other way.  If they DO start to look like winners, they break them up immediately to give one a singles push.  As someone who grew up on NWA and WCW, I despise how the WWE handles tag teams now.  The best tag teams used to be specialists who were regarded very highly.  Now they're something of a joke.

As far as the superhuman thing goes, John Cena himself pretty much devalued the entire roster at one point.  He made everyone else looks so weak that they had to continually push brand new talent because he's already squashed everyone else.  I'm glad they moved away from that somewhat, though I fear Super Cena is going to make a return after WM.


Oh i agree, i was just focusing on the tag teams since it was mentioned.  Really the champs of the mid card belts should be beating non champion top card talent.

I mean, Hogan vs Warrior is just the very first thing that springs to mind there.

 

As for the Cena Superhero stuff...

it's just... the way they do it.


I mean Hulk Hogan was like that too... he was as big a superhero as any... yet somehow he never really devalued the rest of the roster. 

Maybe it was because Hogan tended to show more fear.

 

That was what was fun about when CM Punk was beating him... it looked like Cena really didn't want to face Punk.

It was also interesting with Lesnar. Well until they made Lesnar cowardly and had Cena beat him in easy and stupid ways.



pokoko said:
d21lewis said:
Kane and Daniel Bryan beat The Prime Time Players blindfolded with one hand tied behind their backs a couple of weeks ago. Now, how can PTP get any respect after that?

They can't.  They're ruined.  The WWE continuously devalues it's own talent.  It's insane.  I do not understand it whatsoever.

In my opinion, if you want to make someone look strong, then you first make their opponent looks strong.  That way, it's far more impressive when they win.  Why do people talk about Muhammad Ali still today?  Because of Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Larry Holmes.  The NWA had a great tag division because on any given night you'd buy The Rock & Roll Express, the Road Warriors, The Midnight Express, or the Four Horsemen winning the belts.  The same with the WWE when they had all the great teams of the past.

It's going for cheap, short-term entertainment over long-term story-telling and drama.  It's beyond me why.

There's too many stupid executives.  If someone up top doesn't like you, they're not gonna push you no matter how many fans you have or how many merchandise you push.  They're clinging on to the old way of "paying your dues".  WWE has a strong midcard, the problem is that no one is getting push.  They throw out so many mismatched wrestlers to wrestle, there's no stories, no title is getting defended, it's all stupid.  Even when a champ is wrestling, it's a non-title match.  What's the point?  The midcard titles atleast should be defended at every T.V. show.



So I was watching TNA again, I didn't know they left the Impact Zone. I can't say I really like it though...



That Fandango bullshit is going too far. I had no interest in the guy to begin with and now he is stealing air time with his bullshit "storyline". I think Khali called him Fuckdango on Smackdown, I like that.



Ongoing bet with think-man: He wins if MH4 releases in any shape or form on PSV in 2013, I win if it doesn't.