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Forums - General - Cash for Clunkers, and Healthcare.

Legend11 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Legend11 said:
I think it's ridiculous to take one very badly run program and use that as a reason not to have universal healthcare.

And please name a program that is both run by the private sector and the government, and the government does a better job.

Private education is far better, and far cheeper.

Private healthcare is far better, and far cheeper.

Private roads are better and cheeper then public roads.

Contracted security forces are better and cheeper then government ones (it's why the military contracts them).

Private manufacturing is far better and cheeper then government. It's why our military buys it's equipment, and does not make it.

All around, the private sector does things a lot better, and cheeper then the government.

If this is the case, why would you want to move something that's done so poorly in the private sector to the government with hopes of it getting better?

And in reality, our system is the best in the world if you remove the cost. Your going to look to Government to remove cost? 


Just to address some of your claims...

Private security forces aren't cheaper in fact private contractors get paid more than U.S. soldiers.  The reason they're contracted is because the U.S. military is stretched thin or they simply don't want to move some soldiers from non-active regions like South Korea and Japan.

How is private healthcare cheaper?  For example doctors and nurses in the United States get paid far more than their counterparts in countries with universal healthcare.  Perscription medications are more expensive in the United States.  Hospital bed stays are also more expensive in the United States as well.  There is also more overhead in their dealings with so many different health insurance companies.

Private education may be better but they have the luxury of not having to accept special needs children or follow some guidelines that public schools do.  There is more overheard with public schools some of which could be removed to help save money, for example getting rid of more non-teaching staff.

As for private roads being better and cheaper than public roads, read this: http://www.uspirg.org/uploads/Fz/KM/FzKMHurzDgFl63HW6BliVw/Private-Roads-fact-sheet-WEB-vFinal.pdf

I think some people seem to feel that everything can be done better by the private sector, but when it comes to healthcare do you really think it should be run for profit?  Think about how many hands are already in the cookie jar in the United State's healthcare system.  Think about the fact that insurance companies are constantly fighting with their customers in the denial of paying fees.  People can post horror stories about the Canadian or British healthcare systems for example but they pale in comparison to some of the ones from the United States.

*Edit: Oh and since you excluded the judiciary because it's mostly run by each State, you should look up how univeral healthcare is run in Canada since I think you may have the wrong idea about it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

Private security forces are better BECAUSE they get paid more. They can provide a better service by hiring better people. They still cost less to the government. What the security guy makes does not reflect the cost to government.

Look at the cost of Medicare, and then look at what it would cost to insure those people with a private insurance company. I bet it's a shit load less.

If I opened a private school in my state, and charged $18,000 per student, I could provide them a far better education then public schools do. In my state, we pay $20,000 a year per kid, to educate them.  The problem is people with special needs kids can't afford $18,000 a year to educate there kids, but that has nothing to do with how well the government does it.

Roads is a tuff one, because there is really no such thing as a private road. Toll roads are not really private.

And when talking about how other countries do healthcare, remember, we are not other countries. Our Government is broken, and no one is trying to fix it. Adding healthcare to a broken government is going to give you a broken healthcare system.



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TheRealMafoo said:
Legend11 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Legend11 said:
I think it's ridiculous to take one very badly run program and use that as a reason not to have universal healthcare.

And please name a program that is both run by the private sector and the government, and the government does a better job.

Private education is far better, and far cheeper.

Private healthcare is far better, and far cheeper.

Private roads are better and cheeper then public roads.

Contracted security forces are better and cheeper then government ones (it's why the military contracts them).

Private manufacturing is far better and cheeper then government. It's why our military buys it's equipment, and does not make it.

All around, the private sector does things a lot better, and cheeper then the government.

If this is the case, why would you want to move something that's done so poorly in the private sector to the government with hopes of it getting better?

And in reality, our system is the best in the world if you remove the cost. Your going to look to Government to remove cost? 


Just to address some of your claims...

Private security forces aren't cheaper in fact private contractors get paid more than U.S. soldiers.  The reason they're contracted is because the U.S. military is stretched thin or they simply don't want to move some soldiers from non-active regions like South Korea and Japan.

How is private healthcare cheaper?  For example doctors and nurses in the United States get paid far more than their counterparts in countries with universal healthcare.  Perscription medications are more expensive in the United States.  Hospital bed stays are also more expensive in the United States as well.  There is also more overhead in their dealings with so many different health insurance companies.

Private education may be better but they have the luxury of not having to accept special needs children or follow some guidelines that public schools do.  There is more overheard with public schools some of which could be removed to help save money, for example getting rid of more non-teaching staff.

As for private roads being better and cheaper than public roads, read this: http://www.uspirg.org/uploads/Fz/KM/FzKMHurzDgFl63HW6BliVw/Private-Roads-fact-sheet-WEB-vFinal.pdf

I think some people seem to feel that everything can be done better by the private sector, but when it comes to healthcare do you really think it should be run for profit?  Think about how many hands are already in the cookie jar in the United State's healthcare system.  Think about the fact that insurance companies are constantly fighting with their customers in the denial of paying fees.  People can post horror stories about the Canadian or British healthcare systems for example but they pale in comparison to some of the ones from the United States.

*Edit: Oh and since you excluded the judiciary because it's mostly run by each State, you should look up how univeral healthcare is run in Canada since I think you may have the wrong idea about it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

Private security forces are better BECAUSE they get paid more. They can provide a better service by hiring better people. They still cost less to the government. What the security guy makes does not reflect the cost to government.

Look at the cost of Medicare, and then look at what it would cost to insure those people with a private insurance company. I bet it's a shit load less.

If I opened a private school in my state, and charged $18,000 per student, I could provide them a far better education then public schools do. In my state, we pay $20,000 a year per kid, to educate them.  The problem is people with special needs kids can't afford $18,000 a year to educate there kids, but that has nothing to do with how well the government does it.

Roads is a tuff one, because there is really no such thing as a private road. Toll roads are not really private.

And when talking about how other countries do healthcare, remember, we are not other countries. Our Government is broken, and no one is trying to fix it. Adding healthcare to a broken government is going to give you a broken healthcare system.


I think we're both mistaken on one point.  I assumed that most private security forces were very well trained former special forces but in fact most of the ones being talked about as contractors are typically locally trained guards that don't have the amount of training that American soldiers do.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/25/AR2009072501738.html

Also as far as your government being broken, how is it any different from governments in other countries?  Why is it that the U.S. government is the only one that would be unable to manage universal healthcare when it's able to manage all the other things that other governments do?  Did you know that your government pays more per person in healthcare costs than countries with universal healthcare?  I would say given that fact that the U.S. system is broken now and needs to be fixed.



The use it or lose it mentality is so true. I can personally attest to it.



Legend11 said:


I think we're both mistaken on one point.  I assumed that most private security forces were very well trained former special forces but in fact most of the ones being talked about as contractors are typically locally trained guards that don't have the amount of training that American soldiers do.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/25/AR2009072501738.html

Also as far as your government being broken, how is it any different from governments in other countries?  Why is it that the U.S. government is the only one that would be unable to manage universal healthcare when it's able to manage all the other things that other governments do?  Did you know that your government pays more per person in healthcare costs than countries with universal healthcare?  I would say given that fact that the U.S. system is broken now and needs to be fixed.

The US can only afford to do the things it can, because other countries loan us money. When that stops, the US as we know it goes away.



The only problem with the Federal government is that Republicans and DINOs keep getting elected. They are the ones who sabotage various programs or let their cronies get their hooks into them and then say "SEE it doesn't work!"



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NinjaguyDan said:
The only problem with the Federal government is that Republicans and DINOs keep getting elected. They are the ones who sabotage various programs or let their cronies get their hooks into them and then say "SEE it doesn't work!"

How can we have a Democrat run everything, and people still have this opinion?



Same thing with the govt meddling with credit card company. My credit card apr just went up from 9.9 to 14.99
I thought the new rules were suppose to help people like me?



Cash for Clunkers is a great program.  We get rid of low gas mileage cars that consume to much gas while helping the auto industry at the same time.



TheRealMafoo said:

The reality is our government does run things badly. Why then intrust them with something this important to run?

When why do we let them run national security and the army?

You said: Contracted security forces are better and cheeper then government ones (it's why the military contracts them).

OMG, the last thing anybody wants is a privately controlled military.

Why dont we let a private company or owner run the country?  I believe this is referred to as a dictatorship, but no one would be burdened with having to vote on election day.  Do you have any idea how much it costs to run an election?




Uhh.. My country has health care, why wouldn't you Americans want that? It's great.