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Forums - Microsoft - So what physical medium will Microsoft be using for their next gen console?

waron said:
we have atleast 2-3 years before Xbox 3 announcement and they are already heading to digital distribution on xbox 360. sony went to digital distribution only with PSP GO.

xbox 3 will be using digital distribution with vouchers that will have printed game guides and prepaid cards to buy specific games. it cost less money, takes less space and is good for retailers, developers, publishers and microsoft - everyone is happy.


theres about 7 retail games you can buy off PSN...Warhawk, Siren: Blood Curse, Socom Confrontation, Burnout Paradise, NFL Head Coach 09, Gran Turismo 5: prologue, Ratchet&Clank:Quest for Booty and more are confirmed to come later this year

how can you say Sony only went digital distribution only with the PSP GO ?



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AnarchyWest said:
waron said:
we have atleast 2-3 years before Xbox 3 announcement and they are already heading to digital distribution on xbox 360. sony went to digital distribution only with PSP GO.

xbox 3 will be using digital distribution with vouchers that will have printed game guides and prepaid cards to buy specific games. it cost less money, takes less space and is good for retailers, developers, publishers and microsoft - everyone is happy.


theres about 7 retail games you can buy off PSN...Warhawk, Siren: Blood Curse, Socom Confrontation, Burnout Paradise, NFL Head Coach 09, Gran Turismo 5: prologue, Ratchet&Clank:Quest for Booty and more are confirmed to come later this year

how can you say Sony only went digital distribution only with the PSP GO ?

Physical medium. Read the title.



Squilliam said:

Actually the flash memory was to ensure that whether the game was loaded from the HDD or from a cartridge that the performance seen by the developer would be the same. I was actually concerned with the slow HDD speed and in keeping up with the idea that the 'pro' SKU be just an Arcade with a HDD.

The reasons why I believe that flash would be a good solution are:

1. They can use price stratification, say $55 for a direct download or kiosk download and say $65 for a resellable disc. That way the people buying the game can have an as cheap or cheaper option than the 2nd hand market. They can also sell other products like Music and movies through those same kiosks and kill several birds with one stone.

2. They don't have to pay the $25 or so for the optical drives, nor pay for extra Ram, nor use a mechanical HDD in the Arcade SKU and they can package the console better. The cost savings up front outweigh the extra cost from about the first 5-7 flash cartridges.

3. Not having an optical drive allows them to package the console in other products as well. You could see for example a console based entertainment system in a car, or in the TV or in the Cable box. If they had to have an optical drive the architecture wouldn't be as useful for

this functionality.

4. It makes piracy harder, people cannot simply burn a DVD or Blu Ray disc. They can keep the DRM chain locked throughout the different stages and it makes it easier to make changes to prevent piracy.

Point 2 is unclear: ok about the $25 or so of the optical disk. I don't understand the Ram comment (unless you're thinking of Ram as a permanent storage), nor do I see why we should keep using mechanical HDDs.

Point 3 and 4 are sort of what I was talking about: the architecture being centered about having the content internally stored (this is where the solid state drives will come useful) and remotely authenticated. Now how do I bring that content on my console/media hub/TV?

Either I have access to enough/cheap enough bandwidth and then downloading and authenticating is done via DD, or I have to use a physical medium.

Flash Cartridge vs Optical:

They are more expensive per GB. They're faster in random access (negated if the content is stored/buffered in a solid state disc). They are writeable, thus they could use binding authentication mechanisms (negated if the DRM is handled via remote authentication). They require cheaper electronic and no mechanical parts in the console.

So basically you're down to a more expensive medium that saves you the $25 and allows a more compact packaging of the hardware. You also are not compatible with any optical media out there. It might make sense for Netflix/TV combos. It doesn't seem to make sense for consoles/media hubs.

 

 



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

zarx said:
I can't believe how many people seem to think that Sony and Microsoft are locked in some kind of all out war just because they have competing video game consoles. Sony uses many Microsoft products windows on their laptops/netbooks, winmobile on selected cell phones etc. plus Sony doesn't own Blu-Ray they are just part of the blu-ray consortium.

so back on topic what physical medium? well Microsoft prolly don't know themselves but I would say blu-ray (25-50GB possibly 100GB) or standard DVDs (4.7-8.54GB) are the fore runners for optical formats with HD-DVD (15-30 GB) and VMD (20GB) as possibillities

alternatively some form of cards or carts are possible but not likely.

pure digital distribution is possible but not likely as the Internet speeds and data caps would severely limit the userbase and attach rate not to mention the cost of storage for all the games. sure the current model is showing strong growth but thats with games mostly under 250MB imagine downloading MGS4 sized games 20GB + and then you have to store it so every model would need a big HDD to store more than a few games and that would be very expensive.

Yeah, it's not like they want to kill eachother.



Why do people dismiss HD-DVD because blu ray won? Its got nothing to do with Blu Ray.

The only downsides to using HD DVD over Blu Ray would be that you can't play Blu Ray movies, do Microsoft really care about that? no. They have Net flix and I'm sure by 2013 or w/e they'll have a better DL service for films.

So. HD DVD



 

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^But why the HD DVD? Lower production volumes would mean that both the drive and the supports would eventually cost more than the Blu-Ray ones, for less available space and less compatibility.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:
Squilliam said:

Actually the flash memory was to ensure that whether the game was loaded from the HDD or from a cartridge that the performance seen by the developer would be the same. I was actually concerned with the slow HDD speed and in keeping up with the idea that the 'pro' SKU be just an Arcade with a HDD.

The reasons why I believe that flash would be a good solution are:

1. They can use price stratification, say $55 for a direct download or kiosk download and say $65 for a resellable disc. That way the people buying the game can have an as cheap or cheaper option than the 2nd hand market. They can also sell other products like Music and movies through those same kiosks and kill several birds with one stone.

2. They don't have to pay the $25 or so for the optical drives, nor pay for extra Ram, nor use a mechanical HDD in the Arcade SKU and they can package the console better. The cost savings up front outweigh the extra cost from about the first 5-7 flash cartridges.

3. Not having an optical drive allows them to package the console in other products as well. You could see for example a console based entertainment system in a car, or in the TV or in the Cable box. If they had to have an optical drive the architecture wouldn't be as useful for

this functionality.

4. It makes piracy harder, people cannot simply burn a DVD or Blu Ray disc. They can keep the DRM chain locked throughout the different stages and it makes it easier to make changes to prevent piracy.

Point 2 is unclear: ok about the $25 or so of the optical disk. I don't understand the Ram comment (unless you're thinking of Ram as a permanent storage), nor do I see why we should keep using mechanical HDDs.

Point 3 and 4 are sort of what I was talking about: the architecture being centered about having the content internally stored (this is where the solid state drives will come useful) and remotely authenticated. Now how do I bring that content on my console/media hub/TV?

Either I have access to enough/cheap enough bandwidth and then downloading and authenticating is done via DD, or I have to use a physical medium.

Flash Cartridge vs Optical:

They are more expensive per GB. They're faster in random access (negated if the content is stored/buffered in a solid state disc). They are writeable, thus they could use binding authentication mechanisms (negated if the DRM is handled via remote authentication). They require cheaper electronic and no mechanical parts in the console.

So basically you're down to a more expensive medium that saves you the $25 and allows a more compact packaging of the hardware. You also are not compatible with any optical media out there. It might make sense for Netflix/TV combos. It doesn't seem to make sense for consoles/media hubs.

 

 

The quantity of ram required is a function of not only how much data is being used but also how quickly the buffer can be filled. For example, wouldn't they need less ram if the buffer could be filled at a rate of 400MB/S with a latency of 0.01ms rather than at 40MB/S at a latency of 10ms?

Im not talking about an overall saving of just $25 on the optical drive, theres the $5-10 of royalty payments to allow playback of BR/DVD media to think about, the extra cost in packaging and shipping and the additional ram required to act as a buffer between the slow media and the fast electronic componentry. In all it could easily had $50 to the base cost of the console.

A console only needs an optical drive in two instances, the first to play back legacy media and the second to playback other media. A console like the Wii has gotten away with not being able to do the latter and the PS3 gets away without doing the former. They can include the option for both whilst at the same time cutting the base price or increasing the profits for those who don't want such functionality. Theres no real need at this point to do anything bar playing games because content is more going to be accessed online than it is via optical media in the future.

The price per GB is higher with flash media but the incentives for their use are alligned perfectly.

It helps the console companies fight piracy and lowers the cost per unit and it helps the third party publishers by allowing much greater control over the 2nd hand market, which is what they want. They will be willing to pay more for media which cannot be traded in because they see the 2nd hand market as likely a greater threat to their revenue.

 

 

 



Tease.

USB keys



@Squid

Uhm, I think all of your points were addressed yet.
Who needs buffer RAM when you have a much larger Flash HDD? Who said that you have to ship the console with BR/DVD playback software licenses from the start go? How does Flash help companies fight piracy and 2nd hand when in the era of Digital Distribution content authentication is bound to happen on remote servers?
It's basically the model of Steam on PC (buy via download or via optical support, decrypt and authenticate your installation either way), how would a more expensive Flash medium improve it?



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:

@Squid

Uhm, I think all of your points were addressed yet.
Who needs buffer RAM when you have a much larger Flash HDD? Who said that you have to ship the console with BR/DVD playback software licenses from the start go? How does Flash help companies fight piracy and 2nd hand when in the era of Digital Distribution content authentication is bound to happen on remote servers?
It's basically the model of Steam on PC (buy via download or via optical support, decrypt and authenticate your installation either way), how would a more expensive Flash medium improve it?

If a console makes extensive use of direct download it means that games will have to be resticted in terms of space allowable because anything over 10GB is starting to get too big to be practically downloaded in the timeframes we are looking at.

Download means two things, the first is the direct download over the internet and the second means download via kiosk which is starting to become popular. The means to do so have already started being introduced to game stores for the PSP Go!. The former needs no media and the latter needs only a medium of transfer between the console and the store, which is where flash comes in.

One kiosk in terms of overall cost is far cheaper for the retailer and publishers than a wall of games displayed on a shelf and so the cost of flash is paid back many times over.

The final cost of flash media for whatever fraction of people who do not download or use a kiosk would be lower than the overall cost of selling and releasing almost all media via optical disc distribution, as the space required by those games would increase to fill up the media as it generally does. This would almost certainly again make digital distribution impractical once again for that console.

With flash the media chain is stronger which means that its harder for a 3rd party to insert something into the content verification chain which spoofs or bypasses the content protection protocols. The media itself would be difficult to read or write by anything except for legitimate hardware vendors. Steam itself is cracked because they release their games on open hardware, however consoles are more difficult to crack and as of yet the PS3 nor Xbox 360 internal security has not been cracked open.



Tease.