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Forums - General - Why we need a flat tax.

Oh, by the way Slimebeast:

If you ever feel the need, move to America.

- If you are indeed a medical doctor, expect to earn >$100,000 in America. If your good, expect $500,000.
- Work for doctors is always, ALWAYS available. You could find job placement in a matter of a day.
- Taxes are a bit lower here
- Cost of living is lower
- Find a good area, and you can find Swedish women
- If you like the cold, Ohio is a good place for that
- AMERICAN FOOTBALL
- Video games are cheaper and better access



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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Slimebeast said:


I guess it's like usual then, that u can't discuss the amount of taxes with a liberal/socialist minded. They will always assume that the level set by a government can't be too high, not even abroad.

Kinda the same when discussing immigration, a typical liberal will never admit that the level of immigration is too high anywhere.

I really don't want to be mean, but I just got rejected from a PhD today and I'm in a foul mood tonight...

So that's it? The right is correct and the left is wrong about these things? Is it really that black and white? Almost to the point of where the 'lefties' just can't grasp the concept of tax and immigration and thus all opinions they hold are wrong. Come on now. Everyone here has given some form of valid opinion.



- If you are indeed a medical doctor, expect to earn >$100,000 in America. If your good, expect $500,000.
- Work for doctors is always, ALWAYS available. You could find job placement in a matter of a day.


I wonder if that will be the case if/when Obama's healthcare plan passes.



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 - I think that there would eventually be a salary cap on doctors, removing my salary example. Work would probably be available, but far more red tape, since we'd need more doctors, but have far more government intervention.

US medical facilities are severely understaffed. I worked as a medical transport officer for a year. I worked 12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week touring dozens, if not hundreds, of medical facilities across Ohio ranging from premier cancer treatment centers to hole-in-the-wall elderly care facilities. The one thing I saw was that medical staff was always in short supply.

If you want the simple economics of it: Read a medical journal in the 'employment' section. An RN (that's



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

NJ5 said:
- If you are indeed a medical doctor, expect to earn >$100,000 in America. If your good, expect $500,000.
- Work for doctors is always, ALWAYS available. You could find job placement in a matter of a day.


I wonder if that will be the case if/when Obama's healthcare plan passes.

If they're smart.  Right now there are no price controls in the healthcare bill.

That's why even a lot of Democrats are balking on the bill.  

What they want is for price fixing to be given to the executive branch.  (Those against the bill)

Vs the current system which has a formula which just raises the prices year to year. 




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mrstickball said:
Oh, by the way Slimebeast:

If you ever feel the need, move to America.

- If you are indeed a medical doctor, expect to earn >$100,000 in America. If your good, expect $500,000.
- Work for doctors is always, ALWAYS available. You could find job placement in a matter of a day.
- Taxes are a bit lower here
- Cost of living is lower
- Find a good area, and you can find Swedish women
- If you like the cold, Ohio is a good place for that
- AMERICAN FOOTBALL
- Video games are cheaper and better access

That and apparently Ohio has some of the best hospitals in the world.  Or Cleveland anyway.  Even the non cleveland clinic places placed really high in numerous areas.


Don't know what makes cleveland draw so many good doctors.  Sure isn't the vibrant nightlife.



highwaystar101 said:
Slimebeast said:


I guess it's like usual then, that u can't discuss the amount of taxes with a liberal/socialist minded. They will always assume that the level set by a government can't be too high, not even abroad.

Kinda the same when discussing immigration, a typical liberal will never admit that the level of immigration is too high anywhere.

I really don't want to be mean, but I just got rejected from a PhD today and I'm in a foul mood tonight...

So that's it? The right is correct and the left is wrong about these things? Is it really that black and white? Almost to the point of where the 'lefties' just can't grasp the concept of tax and immigration and thus all opinions they hold are wrong. Come on now. Everyone here has given some form of valid opinion.

It's not that the left is always wrong as much as the left is a collection of individuals who follow ideologies that always ignore the (counter)reactions of actions taken ...

In complicated systems a (counter)reaction to an action can be disproportionately larger than the action, resulting in a system where many of the correct actions to take are based on counterintuitive reasoning. An example of this is that by reducing the cost of credit and making it far more accessable made houses less affordable because more and more people paid the same morgage payment as before to buy the same house as before but had a much larger mortgage (pushing house prices higher); and with house prices being so high, the ammount of money a person can save up as a down payment became meaningless in impacting the mortgage payments and the risk of the bank, and most modest home buyers were being pushed out of the market.

A counterintuitive way to make home prices more affordable would be to ensure that all mortgages had to be backed with a 25% down payment, a mortgage could not be longer than 15 years, and a person could not spend more than 40% of their take-home income on debt repayment ... The end result would be that (in most areas) the average home price would be below $200,000 with most starter homes around $100,000 and (over several years) anyone could save up a decent ammount for a down payment, and monthly mortgage payments would be reasonable. On top of this, people who were "Wealthy" but have poor income levels and need inflation protected investments (read: retired or nearly retired people) could invest in rental realestate because the up-front cost compared to the monthly income would be very reasonable.

 

When it comes to government services there are a few areas where the government can be more efficient and fair than the private sectore, but these are rare cases and it makes little sense to take money away from people who can use it well to give it to the government who can't. Certainly, it sounds great that the government will invest in areas like "Clean Energy" but if they're taking the money away from the Henry Ford of clean energy and giving it to the buggy whip manufacturers it doesn't sound so great, does it?



mrstickball said:

A few thoughts by myself:

  1. A flat tax system wouldn't bring in less revenue, it would bring in more. You see, the thing about taxation in America is that no one actually pays what they are supposed to. A rich person does not pay 40% of his taxes. He pays 40% less what he can cheat out of the government via accounting, record as a loss (which is easier when your rich), and get back in tax credits. The poor do this as well with tax credits. After all, my poor friends still get back thousands of USD come tax time because they 'paid too much into the system'. A flat tax system should, if implemented right, remove loopholes from the rich, ensuring they do pay in what's required. We always call out the wealthy for having 99% of wealth in America. Under a flat tax system, they pay that 99% out. I think that's fair.
  2. We still need some sort of progression under a flat tax system, because some poor would still be hurt via a regressive cost of living. I believe the way to do this is incorporate a negative income tax plus flat tax system as proposed by Milt Friedman, one of the greatest free market economists in our history. Under a NIT, each family would start off with a tax burden of -$10,000 per year. Under a 30% flat tax, a person would need to make $39,000 per year to 'pay back' the taxes. Anything more, and you get taxed normally. Anything less, and you get it back. No real need to burden the IRS with needless paperwork.
  3. It would help the government budget better. The problem that we see is that no matter what, tax revenue never seems to be proportionate to any sort of solid metric - income, GDP, ect. With a flat tax, we can tie taxation into such a system, thereby forcing the govenment to budget better, or raise taxes on everyone. Not just the poor or rich.
  4. A flat tax does benefit the poor. As stated, with a negative income tax, the rich that actually pay taxes now would be less burdened, while the evaders pay more. This benefits us all.

I agree with those that are saying that flat tax burdens the poor because....It does. Currently, the poor are allowed 5,000 loopholes from child credits to work credits, to god-knows-whatelse credit which allow the worst offenders to get thousands of dollars back for bad and stupid behavior. We need to eliminate that, and give them a very simple exemption: Work, and you get $10,000 a year, less the 30% tax rate. I think such a thing as the NIT would allow for the least progression. I believe that everyone does have a civil duty to pay taxes: poor and rich alike, so such a thing as an NIT allows the poor to participate in taxation, and for their voices to be heard, as an increase in tax rates would effect them just as much.

Going back to the rich: The fact of the matter is (again), they don't actually pay 35% or 40%. They get many exemptions. If you take away their exemptions, but offer a slightly lower tax rate, you will tax them more, but do it in a much more evenhanded manner.

 

I do like it! Simple and fair is what I see with that. Though one severe downside to what I've seen you post in the past is that I would suspect there could be a severe drop in charity payments under such a system as charity is used as one of the loopholes. I suspect you have an answer to this issue as you've been a proponent of charity in the past?

Well written post! I do enjoy your posts even though I like to disagree sometimes.

@Slimebeast: You are Swe, therefore you are awesome. Swe is > all people in the world. Therefore don't complain, move to countries where being Swe is worshiped and you'll do great.

@HappySquirrel:

Thats the exactly same line of thought I had with regards to controling house prices. The only difference is that I go further and I would require that 'investment' properties have an even lower debt/equity ratio because the big concern I have is that it would encourage rampant home 'investment' by individuals which I would prefer to discourage. Its due to the fact that initially before people adjusted, the only people with the enourmous capital required to invest in homes would be those who already have a home.

Buying a house isn't nearly as productive for the economy as say investing in an economically viable windfarm or factory. Its something which annoys me about my country, getting into such a bad debt/GDP ratio over something as trivial and non productive as a huge, palatial home.



Tease.

The problem with your theory is that, according to the economy, the 300 hours of the rich is worth much, much more than the 300 hours of the guy working at KFC.

 

An equal contribution in terms of one's effort would still reflect the graduated tax more than the flat one



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

The problem with your theory is that, according to the economy, the 300 hours of the rich is worth much, much more than the 300 hours of the guy working at KFC.

 

An equal contribution in terms of one's effort would still reflect the graduated tax more than the flat one

How is a doctor's time not worth dramatically more than a person who's job requires a very basic skill set and no education, has very limited responsibility with no stress, and has no medium or long term impact on anyone?

@Squilliam

My way to make house prices more affordable was not really a suggestion of how things should be done, as much as it was a demonstration of how the simple intuitive approach to problem solving that is often taken by governments (because it is easy to sell to people) can have the complete opposite reaction that they intend.