shio said: Onyxmeth said: shio said: Onyxmeth said: I don't see why these complainers can't merely jump into the Community games section. If the release is very good, it will get bumped up to the most popular, and it will garner more attention and sales that way, so next release MS may be more willing to allow their big project into XBLA itself. It's called earning their place, and yes it may take a release or two to get to hang with the big boy publishers. This is why they created XNA in the first place, so indy studios had their own avenue to get noticed and not have to compete against what would likely be bigger, more robust, and more marketable releases from third party developers and MS themselves. Do these guys really want to compete against Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Battlefield 1943 and Shadow Complex? They'll get swallowed. The Community games section is for hobbyists and amateur devs, it is not for proffessional developers nor is a place to make money. We are talking about real developers that are in a small, indie team and that get paid like any dev from a big studio. Indie devs are the people that Audiosurf, or Mount & Blade, or Zeno Clash, etc... Indie developers have been the ones that have done original things, and spurred a tremendous amount of creativity that we stopped seeing in big studios and publishers. What Microsoft is doing is take from indie devs and give to the big publishers, in order to satisfy the publishers, but it will hurt the ones that need support the most. I mean, publishers are releasing remakes that don't even add anything to the experience, games that have no originality. Hell, maybe Audiosurf or Zeno Clash will never come to the Xbox 360 because of them. Here's an idea. Find me 35 titles per year from indy developers on the 360 that are of Audiosurf, Zeno Clash and Mount & Blade quality and then we'll talk about this. Until then, I see 35 as a perfectly acceptable number since there are probably no more than 5 genuinely great indy titles per year from indy devs to begin with. Frankly, I can count the total number of indy titles on XBLA that are of Audiosurf quality on one hand, and I won't lift every finger, trust me. Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf. I can't even think of one.

You just killed your argument in one foul swoop, probably without knowing it.

 

1 game has a chance of being better then big publisher games, and your having a sook... WOW great argument, this actually was looking like it was gonna be a valid discussion piece, you were originally saying that ==>

shio said:

seece said: ^ Thats because they're content is the best. We want the best right?

Indie devs have been releasing far better games than the big publishers at $30 or below prices.

 

That is a quote from you, you are pulling at serious straws going from "Indie devs...far better games than the big publishers" to "Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf."

You want 35 on one side of the argument, but are happy to use 1 indie game for argument... game over you lose, start credits

Seems like a number of Sony users are complaining about MS trying to limit the number of games from LIVE. And yet, when Sony explicitly stated a little over a year ago that it was their plan all along to limit the amount of titles, I remember it being cheered:

“We’re very careful about the stuff we add to our catalog. Early on as a company we decided it’s not going to be about giant numbers and ‘Hey, come to PlayStation Network and you’ll have 5000 games, maybe three of which you actually want. Go ahead and find that needle in the haystack’.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony-psn-about-quality-not-quantity

shio said: Onyxmeth said: = Here's an idea. Find me 35 titles per year from indy developers on the 360 that are of Audiosurf, Zeno Clash and Mount & Blade quality and then we'll talk about this. Until then, I see 35 as a perfectly acceptable number since there are probably no more than 5 genuinely great indy titles per year from indy devs to begin with. Frankly, I can count the total number of indy titles on XBLA that are of Audiosurf quality on one hand, and I won't lift every finger, trust me. Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf. I can't even think of one.

I don't have to. The burden of proof is on you. The topic is whether or not 35 indy releases per year is enough. It's not whether there are 35 big third party releases published on XBLA that are better than Audiosurf. I'm well aware of how good Audiosurf is, and my point was that XBLA barely has any indy devs at all putting out games of that quality, let alone over 35 per year. Either cough up 35 indy releases per year that are of good quality or simply concede that Microsoft is merely weeding out the trash.

Frankly, considering you likely don't have a 360 to begin with and probably don't know jackshit about what's on Xbox Live, this seems more like you yet again just trying to step all over a console to better your pro-PC agenda.

CaptDS9E said: "Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf. I can't even think of one." Castle Crashers Geometry Wars 1/2 Dishwasher Age of Booty Cloning Clyde Outpost Kaloki Braid Just a few off the top of my head

I played Braid, Age of Booty and a Geometry Wars out of those you listed, and they were definitely not as good as Audiosurf, let alone Mount & Blade.

shio said: CaptDS9E said: "Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf. I can't even think of one." Castle Crashers Geometry Wars 1/2 Dishwasher Age of Booty Cloning Clyde Outpost Kaloki Braid Just a few off the top of my head I played Braid, Age of Booty and a Geometry Wars out of those you listed, and they were definitely not as good as Audiosurf, let alone Mount & Blade.

So out of the 8 he listed you have played 3... and you are saying braid is not as good as audio surf... mmmk, last time i am saying this but most people actually disagree with you on the braid case, therefore you should now realise it is opinion and not pure fact.

 

Playability on XBL will decide a lot of these fates, there will also be heavey testing...

shio said: CaptDS9E said: "Here's another idea, find me 35 titles from the big publishers on the 360 that aren't remakes and are on the same level as Audiosurf. I can't even think of one." Castle Crashers Geometry Wars 1/2 Dishwasher Age of Booty Cloning Clyde Outpost Kaloki Braid Just a few off the top of my head I played Braid, Age of Booty and a Geometry Wars out of those you listed, and they were definitely not as good as Audiosurf, let alone Mount & Blade.

THAT'S BECAUSE MOST INDIE GAMES ARE NOT AS FULL FEATURED AND NOT SHIT AS M&B!! GAHHH!!!!!

I can't say the same for audio surf, I thought it sucked, and I have beats for psp anyway.

senortaco said: bdbdbd said: halil23 said: *looks at my sig* ahhh another plus reasons. Anyway, wonder if Nintendo & Sony has similar limits? (I doubt though) I don't know about Sony, but Nintendo isn't selling you the dev kit unless you have a office address, so it's kind of yes and no. I believe I read somewhere too that Nintendo puts a threshold on sales before you recieve payment, but it's flexible, either way you better be sure your game is good enough to sell to the threshold...

Yes they have. Depending on the file size of your game, there's a limit for a games sales in 2 years it needs to pass in order for the developer get payed. But after the limit has been surpassed, the dev gets paid in full for the game.

@Topic: I don't definately complain about the quality control, because most of the indie games are cheap crap anyway (no offence), but i wouldn't lock them out either, since some of the crap truly is gold and possibly the most fun games in ages.

The best way for an indie game to break through anyhow is to put it up in the GDC IGDA competitions. Every winner of the IGDA has pretty much had their doors knocked down for invites to bring the game to the consoles.

I think what people seem to forget is that most games are crap, regardless of being indie or not. But since there are more and more indie developers coming up means there are more and more good indie games coming up. PC gaming is proof that a platform can have dozens, or even hundreds of decent to good indie games every year.

shio said: I think what people seem to forget is that most games are crap, regardless of being indie or not. But since there are more and more indie developers coming up means there are more and more good indie games coming up. PC gaming is proof that a platform can have dozens, or even hundreds of decent to good indie games every year.

Yeah, but that's out of what, tens or hundreds of thousands?

I really do have certain intrest towards indie games, because of what they can come up with, but per one good and/or innovative/fresh game, we have dozens and dozens of pure crap.

@Bardicverse: How's the project going btw?