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Forums - General - Why the recession is not gonna be over anytime soon

It will take some time for you to go through this thread, but I think you'll find it worth the time.

I've been reading quite a lot about the economy and the recession, and I zeroed in on one particular blogger with an excellent track record of understanding and predicting the extent and causes of this recession - Karl Denninger of the market ticker. He isn't by any means the only person who has the same understanding of these matter, but he's by far the one who provides the most data, explanations and commentary on a regular basis.
I recommend anyone who is interested to read his blog once in a while, but for this thread I'll focus on a particular debate which has been happening between Dennis Kneale from the CNBC TV channel and a few bloggers.
It all started when Dennis Kneale claimed that the recession is over, and that the very bad recent unemployment figures don't matter, since unemployment is the last thing to be fixed in a recession... in other words, a lagging indicator which isn't a sign of things to come. This is the video if you're interested:
Then  

I've been reading quite a lot about the economy and the recession, and I zeroed in on one particular blogger with an excellent track record of understanding and predicting the extent and causes of this recession - Karl Denninger of the market ticker. He isn't by any means the only person who has the same understanding of these matter, but he's by far the one who provides the most data, explanations and commentary on a regular basis.

I recommend anyone who is interested to read his blog once in a while, but for this thread I'll focus on a particular debate which has been happening between Dennis Kneale from the CNBC TV channel and a few bloggers.

It all started when Dennis Kneale claimed that the recession is over, and that the very bad recent unemployment figures don't matter, since unemployment is the last thing to be fixed in a recession... in other words, a lagging indicator which isn't a sign of things to come. This is the video with those statements:

 

 

 

Then Karl posted this reply, from which this is the important part:

OK, now on to the facts - your idiotic and utterly unsupportable "the recession is over" call.

There are two types of recessions, if you happen to know more about economics than you knew about options a year ago, when you were caught asking on the air "what's the VIX?"

The types of recessions are inventory driven recessions, the most common, and credit driven recessions.

The last material credit driven recession was in the 1930s.  We called it the "The Great Depression."

Inventory-driven recessions are primarily about excessive industrial capacity for demand.  That is, manufacturers and suppliers of services get too bullish about prospects, build too much capacity and inventory, and wind up engaging in a destructive price war in an attempt to "win".  This drives down profits and ultimately forces the weaker firms out of business, ergo, recession - GDP and employment decline.  Having cleansed itself of the excess, the economy recovers.   The trigger for these recessions is often (but not always) an external shock such as the oil embargo in the 1970s or the collapse of the Internet fraud-and-circuses games in 2000.

The second sort of recession is a credit-driven recession.  Excessive credit creation - that is, loans going too far toward "fog a mirror" qualifications (and in some cases, such as the most recent event, actually reaching "fog a mirror") drives one or more asset bubbles.  These pop when effective interest rates in the economy reach an effective level of zero, usually because the amount of leverage available becomes for all intents and purposes infinite (Bear and Lehman at 30:1, Fannie/Freddie at 80:1, AIG at god-knows-what, and duped "home buyers" buying with zero down for a true infinite leverage ratio.)  This excessive credit creation drives a speculative asset bidding war which in turn causes prices to go sky-high for one or more types of asset.

The latter sort of recession is triggered because the cost of borrowing money is never actually zero, even if people pretend that it might be.  As a consequence the lenders begin to earn a negative spread and lose actual purchasing power.  This is an unsustainable situation because cash flow cannot be fudged nor can anyone sustain a negative cash flow for very long; no matter how much you start with if you spend more than you make eventually you go broke.

Recessions cannot end until the conditions that caused the recession are removed from the economy.  This is elementary logic and obvious to anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size.

For an inventory recession growth returns when enough capacity is destroyed through layoffs and inventory selloffs to bring capacity and demand back into balance.  Employers then hire new workers and the economy recovers.

For a credit recession, however, there is a much larger problem: The reason real interest rates went negative is that debt has a carrying cost and consumes free cash flow; so long as the debt taken on in the credit binge remains the cash flow impact also remains.

Default and bankruptcy clears excessive credit (debt) from the system - if it is allowed to occur.  But if it is not, then the bad debt remains on the balance sheetssomewhere and the cash flow impact remains in the economy.  Employment remains weak, capital spending restart attempts falter as demand fails to return and credit quality continues to remain insufficient to support new credit demand.

The consumer is 70% of our economy, give or take a few points.  The consumer's "savings rate" (which government blithely declares as income minus spending), which was in fact negative (that is, consumers were spending more than they made through taking on more and more debt), but is now solidly positive at 6.9%. 

The impact of this (6.9% X 70%) is an immediate 4.83 decrease in real GDP. Fudge the numbers all you want (and government will), but this is the math, and the math is never, ever wrong.

The truly bad news however is that most of the time saving in fact turns into capital formation - that is, it becomes investment.  But government doesn't differentiate between actual savings and debt repayment - their formula is simply "income less spending = savings rate." 

You had one guest on this evening who "got it", but you wouldn't let him explain it, so I will.

Consumers are not saving, they are paying down debt in a furious attempt to avoid defaulting on nearly $1 trillion in outstanding credit card balances that have gone from 11% interest to 29.6% along with OptionARMs that are experiencing a tripling of payments while the home's value is underwater and precludes refinance, all while consumers are being laid off by the hundreds of thousands monthly.

We as a society and government are doing everything in our power to avoid the banks and others having to take their medicine - that is, to allow the excessive debt to be defaulted.  We have in fact shifted more than $2 trillion dollars of actual bad debt onto the Treasury and Federal Reserve rather than allow the market to declare it defaulted and force those who hold too much of it into bankruptcy, and we continue this asinine and exactly backward program to this very day.

This is an utterly idiotic policy because the condition that led us into this recession - excessive debt - must be removed, not shifted around and hidden, before the recession can truly end.

Japan tried what we're doing in the 1990s and failed.  The Nikkei never recovered its former highs, in fact, it never even got close.  Japan's economy never managed to get materially out of deflation and is now back in it as a direct consequence of their refusal to force the bad debt into the open and default it.

We are going to suffer the precise same fate for the precise same reason unless our government and economic leaders stop hiding the bad paper and force it out into the open where it will default and be removed from the economy.

Your network has fawned all over Bernanke when in fact he is acting exactly backward compared to what must be done - he is hiding bad assets on his balance sheet, allowing banks to hide bad assets on theirs, and refusing to expose the liars, cheats and frauds (along with their phony "assets") so they will default and clear the system of bad debt.  He is doing this because he is protecting those who wrote all that bad paper, mathematics be damned, and if it doesn't stop we will at best play Japan and at worst have a Depression far worse than the 1930s, as our systemic leverage ratios still, to this day, are higher than they ever were in the Great Depression!

This is not about what I believe Dennis, this is about mathematical facts.  Real GDP has taken a 4.83% contraction already from consumers alone - now add into this the pass-through effects on manufacturing and service output from unemployment and the numbers are even worse.  It matters not what the government cooks up - what matters is what people actually do.

Then Dennis Kneale replied live on TV to this article with the following (the gist is that he calls out Karl for not having any hard data):

 

 

As the final reply (so far), today Karl posted a summary of a lot of things he has talked about before:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1193-Kneale-You-Asked-For-It.....html

I won't quote it here because of all the embedded images, but that should show you why the debt problem is nowhere near solved, and in fact is getting worse in many fronts (especially the US government and the federal reserve, who keep increasing their debt to enormous amounts). On the consumer side debt is decreasing but very slowly.

 



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tl;dr



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While I agree with him that the recession isn't over and probably wont be for another few moths to half a year, his outlook is a little too pessimistic, his concern is entirely focused on the consumer aspect of the issue, but he forgets that the great depression wasn't solved by letting all of the bad debt work itself out and consumer spending coming back. No in fact it wasn't until the government shouldered massive debt for its time as a percentage of GDP and began a massive public works project (helping to crush the Axis powers), that it was able to come out of the Depression. Letting the banks fail at the early stages of the Depression was one of the reasons it lasted so long because it caused even greater retractions in consumption and investment.

Now while the truth is that he's right that we will have to work out this debt at some point, doing it now will not recover the economy, but rather send it into a downward spiral. GDP is the sum of Consumption, Investment, Government expenditures, and Net Exports, so since consumption and investment are down, government spending has to step up to cover the gap.



 

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@Avinash : On the other hand, anything that is tried today by the US to get out of the deflation (which could soon become a new Great Depression) was already tried in vain by the Japanese in the 90s to fight their own deflation.

Buying assets, building big projects, bailing out the banks, printing money, nationalizing... Nothing worked actually. The major theory today (see Bernanke) is the Japanese failed in the 90s because they injected money / built projects too late, but it doesn't seem that true. Japanese acted fast actually but it just didn't work, according to many historians.

It could very well mean that it's nearly impossible to get out of deflation quickly. The best way to fight deflation could be to avoid it altogether by making the asset bubbles unable to inflate to begin with. Every deflation was caused by the creation of huge asset bubbles (stock markets, commodities, home prices). The key here is probably to keep the fed rates high enough to avoid injecting money in those bubbles.

When put to zero enough time, rates create major misallocation of money in the economy (asset bubbles), because they allow 'cheap money' to be allocated in the same part of the economy, creating bubble

This fact and behavorial economics too (see Robert Shiller's work on that point, this man accurately predicted when the stock market would collapse in 2000 and when the home prices would collapse a few years later) are not widely acknowledged today by our governments.

Look at the rates in 2000 : zero. Look at the rates today : zero again. Every time we face difficult times, we slash the rates to zero, ignoring that even if it can help on the short term, it definitely spells trouble for future by building new asset bubbles that will in turn create new deflation...

So I agree mostly with the OP, the recession seems to me far from over. It won't probably be for many years either.



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Avinash_Tyagi said:
While I agree with him that the recession isn't over and probably wont be for another few moths to half a year, his outlook is a little too pessimistic, his concern is entirely focused on the consumer aspect of the issue, but he forgets that the great depression wasn't solved by letting all of the bad debt work itself out and consumer spending coming back. No in fact it wasn't until the government shouldered massive debt for its time as a percentage of GDP and began a massive public works project (helping to crush the Axis powers), that it was able to come out of the Depression. Letting the banks fail at the early stages of the Depression was one of the reasons it lasted so long because it caused even greater retractions in consumption and investment.

Now while the truth is that he's right that we will have to work out this debt at some point, doing it now will not recover the economy, but rather send it into a downward spiral. GDP is the sum of Consumption, Investment, Government expenditures, and Net Exports, so since consumption and investment are down, government spending has to step up to cover the gap.

Over indebted consumers and the consequence to banks was the reason the recession started, so there's a reason for people to focus on those aspects.

I don't think the Great Depression ended due to higher government debt. In fact the public works projects were seen as failures, and the Keynesians said the government wasn't spending enough.

Look at Japan and Sweden. Their banking crises only ended when the government forced an audit of the banks and let the insolvent ones fail. Shifting debt around and hiding it has never worked so far...

 



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@NJ5 : I agree on the fact more debt rarely gets you out of a problem created by debt. It's true for individuals and it's most likely true for states too...

What if Obama's plans succeed ? Well, we'll create new bubbles due to Zero rate policy, in stock market, or oil, or metals, or housing, anything could see its prices fly to the sky... Then we'll be back to the start when those new bubbles explode again, with deflation again, just with more debt.



Spot on.

It's the people who don't fully understand the problem to begin with that are either "seeing the end" or actually making things worse (hello Obama).



It's funny, the same people saying it's over are the same people that said it wasn't coming. And the same people that said it was coming are the same people who are saying it isn't over.



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Tony_Parker said:
@NJ5 : I agree on the fact more debt rarely gets you out of a problem created by debt. It's true for individuals and it's most likely true for states too...

What if Obama's plans succeed ? Well, we'll create new bubbles due to Zero rate policy, in stock market, or oil, or metals, or housing, anything could see its prices fly to the sky... Then we'll be back to the start when those new bubbles explode again, with deflation again, just with more debt.

The problem with a commodity bubble is that people don't make profit from that, unlike with a housing or stock market bubble. An oil bubble would be destructive right from the start.

With the stock market maybe it would be possible, but I guess people are more wary after the 2000 crash. They're running out of bubbles to pump.

 



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Yeah, we definitely ran 'out of bubbles to pump'. Our worldwide debt bubble and worldwide housing bubble were the two biggest bubbles ever, so I don't see what could be inflated now to get us out of the hole.

I agree bubbles rarely profit to the average Joe, and when they do, anyway, they always explode one day, so it's not really a solution on the long run.