@ PearlJam

Cool. Its nice to get some feedback from a dual analog player who has competed against mouse and keyboard players. I haven't played Halo CE but I know the console versions all have auto-aim to some degree. Killzone 2 has the least auto-aim of a console FPS that I have played but I haven't tried to use a DA pad on a PC FPS...

If you say you are competitive with DA then I can't see how IR would be an improvement for you.

I do think that a lot of keyboard and mouse players and now IR players feel that DA is less accurate than those setups but I have no evidence to prove this. Now if there were a worldwide leaderboard on an FPS/TPS showing the top players and their control method (similar to Mario Kart) that would be helpful.

This is the point of the thread. What advantages do IR/Motion have over DA, and if there are any, do you think they are just superficial or is there a technical benefit to using them? I tried to break it down by genre to give my thoughts but I wanted to see what other people think as well.

Don't get me wrong I definitely see an advantage to using the pointer, I just think the lack of buttons can be an issue. And what you say about auto aiming is true, some console shooters abuse it. But I think that good DA players can adjust to not having auto aim in the same way that you are better when not using the lock-on in Wii games. It just takes a little getting used too, but if you are already good with DA you won't miss the auto aim for long.

I haven't played too much KillZone 2, but I didn't find the aiming to be a problem. My biggest gripe is that the PS3's shoulder buttons just don't feel as good as the triggers that other systems have.

Another good example is Gears of War (360) with friendly fire turned on. That game doesn't have a FreeForAll mode, so people just play different game types with friendly fire on and just kill each other.

With friendly fire on, you can kill friendlies but Auto-Aim is disabled against them. I honestly don't find it any harder killing friendlies (no auto aim) when compared to hostiles (auto aim on).

Mono analog. The N64 had the best games in any genre that matters to me, ever.

The best example of how IR is better for controls is Resident Evil 4. It was particularly apparent in the shooting gallery where with dual analog I would have to aim for the body in the later stages and I would need many tries to succeed but with the IR shooting I could pull head shots all the time and blaze through it without any trouble.

The Godfather is a great example of gesture and IR controls showing their advantages over Dual Analog.

It works as an overall proof of concept for many game genres because of various facets confined within the game.



Here's something else to consider. When using a Dual analog pad, how many buttons do you have direct access to while simultaneously utilizing both analog sticks? 4....all on the shoulders. To hit the other 4 face buttons requires you to move your thumb from your aiming stick. Now how many buttons are quickly accessible on Wii? 4. With a further 3 considered easily reachable (D-pad down, - and +). Let's not forget gesture controls available on both the Wii Remote and the Nun-Chuck.

You technically have more action input options on Wii than you do an a DA pad when using both analog sticks.

^
Yeah I filed Godfather under beat'em'ups with Mad World and No More Heroes because although it is a sandbox game the main mechanic that never gets old is beating up shop keepers with motion controls. With that said, Scarface did IR camera control for third person shooting better than Godfather. There is no reason why any third person games should be using the D-Pad for camera control on the Wii..

Your point about DA only having 4 readily accessible buttons while using the sticks is a good observation IMO.  How many more inputs then Z, C, B, A and Wiimote motion/Nunchuck motion do you really need anyway.  Very rarely do I find myself needing to use the +, - buttons much less the 1, 2 buttons on Wii.

^Actually, with DA you have 6 buttons because the analog sticks can be clicked. And two of those shoulder buttons are actually analogic triggers on both PS3 and 360. And all of these can be pressed in arbitrary combinations, thing that is true of the first 4 you named on the Wii, but not of the "easily reachable" extra 3.

That amounts to a lot more input options in my view.

^
Oh yeah, I forgot about the sticks. Still the Wii Remote/Nunchuck has quite a few combinations as well when you consider that Buttons+Motions can register different actions as well..  Also, the Wii Remote at least is very capable of registering directional movements as button presses (i.e. left/right motion as slash, up motion as block, or B+Up motion as high block etc.)...  There is really no need for that in most games though..

The coolest use of motion are games like Boom Blox or The Godfather where you latch onto an object with B+A or another button combination and then manipulate the object in free space.  If EA would have put in Z-Targeting so that it is easy to know what you are aiming at, The Order of the Phoenix (Harry Potter) did this pretty well too.

True, the analogs can be clicked but how often are they actually utilized? If they were used more often, I would have counted them.

The triggers may be analog but the degree of depression rarely is used to select more than 1 action. Whether you depress 10 percent or 100 percent rarely alters the action. Are not the face buttons still analog? I recall the PS2 DS2 pad having analog face buttons though just the same they rarely were given an use.

However, I'll grant you their existence regardless of utilization. but to counter I provide you with the gesture controls again of both the Wii Remote and Nun-Chuck which provide multiple 360 degree axis that can be utilized at the same time as the analog stick, the IR and the 4 easily accessible buttons.

I believe the volume of input options is far greater on Wii. Though at this point we are both debating options that developers rarely utilize.

^About the stick clicks: since we talked so much of FPS games, they are essential for example in KZ2's default control scheme as they are bound to sprint and ironsight toggle. KZ2 uses all 6 of those buttons, by the way, so that you only have to leave the right analog stick for actions that stop your aiming anyway (reload, change weapon, jump, use).

Beside this particular example though, I think every PS3 game I own uses them somehow.

Besides, if you bring up the nunchaku's accelerometers (the wiimote is supposedly being used as a pointer instead of one of the sticks, so you can't consider its motion sensing at the same time, same as face buttons on DA) i can bring up the sixxaxis accelerometers too :)

Oh, and to top your dismissal of the analog triggers: actually on the PS3/PS2 - not sure about the 360 - all 4 face buttons are also analogic (and yes, there are games who use half-presses, such as MGS3/4)