No, that just makes it easier. Yes, if you consider only having the high tier BoP stuff "ultimate progress", then yes.

But you can get to level 80, have 100,000 gold, and never deal with another player, if you want to put the effort into it.

You are not "forced" to deal with any player, you are just given the option to make your life less of a struggle if you do. That's a major difference.

And MH, you can use any MMO to make this argument, I just chose WoW because more people know it.

Good analogy Mafoo ,

As it works with what I would envision as the perfect society too with some minor adaptions to your analogy. You see I agree that the best way to run a market is free. every man for himself and try to make the best profit you have, none of this socialism malarkey. However, if we expand it past the game for my envision to the real world a bit.

In WoW you pay a monthly fee (taxes) to Blizzard (government). In return Blizzard gives you the essentials you need to be able to start in the world of Warcraft, all the aid and help you require to learn the game (education). If the game has a bug it will be fixed by Blizzard (healthcare) and if it receives a virus it will be eradicated by them (National defense).

That way wealth is spread in a capitalist manner, but everyone also has the same basic essentials to begin with from the tax that was paid.

I don't believe either extreme socialism or extreme capitalism work. You need a balance between the two, drawing form the positive aspects of both.


... As for how a socialist version of WoW would work, yeah the logistics could be sorted out easily, but it wouldn't be very fun lol.

there are different degrees of Socialism, Communism (what Mafoo thinks all socialism is) is the extremist degree of Socialism, most people with sense advocate a system that is somewhere between extreme socialism and extreme capitalism, largely because the extremes of either end up badly for many.

once you acknowledge the varying degrees of socialism, yes, to a degree you could put socialist ideas into WoW, for instance, group rewards for completing team challenges (in an extreme capitalist game, only individual players get rewards).

you see, you dont have to be extreme, i learnt that lesson, why cant you?

It's kind of hard to map outside game and inside game in the same analogy , but let's go with it.

You state you pay Blizzard a monthly fee (taxes). The difference here and the way the world really works, is in WoW, everyone pays the same fee (15 bucks a month or whatever it is), and gets the same resources for that money.

If you were to map this into how taxes work in all 1st world countries, Blizzard would calculate that they need 15 bucks from everyone. You would then have to submit to Blizzard what your income is, and if you were in the bottom 40% of the people who play wow, you get to play for free. If you are in the top 10%, you pay $100 a month.

If they ran it that way, now many people do you think would play WoW?

A better social analogy, would be that in WoW, you don't have to eat, worry about shelter, or worry about getting sick. The game in a passive way "socialized" these things for you. Where that breaks down however, is in the game, there is no cost associated with them. The design team just said "let's not worry about people needing to eat" and it was done.

In real life, it's different. Let's say in WoW it cost you 1 gold a day to stay healthy (healthcare and eating). Every character has a cost of 1 gold a day. The developers (government) however decide that if you don't login and play (contributing to society), you still get the service. So, 10% of the players login each day. This means that those 10% collectively have to pay 10 gold each. Some are lower level, so they can't even cover themselves, let alone everyone else. So, you make the tax progressive based on the % of gold you earned that day. If you logged in and earned 200 gold, the game takes 100 of it. If you earned 10 gold, they take 2, and so on.

How many people in WoW do you think would go for that? The crazy thing is, in real life, that's exactly how it works.

EDIT: to map this to the real world in a better way. Two people level 80 play for 3 hours. One earned 200 gold in those three house, and one earned 10 gold. At the strike of Midnight, the 200 gold player get's dinged 100 gold, and the 10 gold player gets dinged 2 gold.

If WoW (or any MMO) worked that way, how many people do you think would play it?

Mafoo, I'm telling you, this analogy does not work. The problem here is that you're putting down Gold as the primary measure of success in WoW. The problem this creates is two-fold:

1. While it is very much possible to obtain Gold by oneself in WoW, ventures made together tend to be much more lucrative, and the Gold-per-person-per-hour rate rises even if every person takes a smaller cut. Financially speaking, it makes the best sense to earn gold with your buddies and let the impartial system dole out the filthy lucre.

2. Gold isn't the primary measure of success in WoW. Loot - or equipment - is. People only partially go raiding for the experience of it, or to kill the boss or advance some kind of plot that no one really cares about. Far more often, people are in it for the loot. And that loot is necessary for high level play - PvE or PvP, your equipment makes you who you are, and your ability to obtain this equipment makes you more efficient at anything and everything. Now, unlike Gold, the best and most prestigious equipment is not necessarily obtainable in solo play, but it remains necessary in order to play at a high level in any portion of the game. From this, it can be assumed that the socialistic participation in high-level raids is necessary in order to be really and truly successful.

Now, strictly speaking, you do not need this fancy, almost-impossible-to-obtain-by-yourself equipment, but you don't need Gold either! This is another facet in which the analogy falls on its face: in a perfect capitalist society you need money, but Gold isn't used in order to obtain sustenance or shelter in WoW. You could limit yourself to functioning without Gold and still manage to get thirty thousand hours out of the game, which is not something that is especially possible in a capitalist society.

Keep in mind I'm not saying anything about socialism vs. capitalism, just that if you're looking for a game that exemplifies how capitalism should work, WoW isn't it. Nor is any MMO, when you get down to it.

Edit: Hell, wanna bet that I can make a better argument that WoW is actually a model for a Marxist utopia?

Any videogame can be socialist you just have to turn on the cheats (govenment).

All but 1% of the loot in WoW can be purchased with money. People spend real money to get WoW money, so it must have some importance in the game. And like in the real world, money is nothing more than a metric to calculate effort. When you spend money in WoW, you are transferring some amount of time you had to play the game for something of equal or greater effort (that’s the goal anyway).

In a lot of MMO’s, the top gear is crafted, so you can solo the entire game. WoW is one of those that require you to spend your effort acquiring the item, not transfer your efforts from doing other things into that item. For WoW, this is just so you play the game longer, and they generate more monthly fees, it has no impact on the comparison to a political and economic system. In the end, it’s still an effort/reward system, just with Blizzard requiring more specific effort.

Oh, and the “working together thing” is just like a company that makes a product not doing everything on their own. Car companies don’t make tires, Car companies and tire companies work together to generate a better collective product. This in no way is socialistic, and grouping with friends so each one can get ahead is in no way a measure of socialism either.

And yes, please show me how WoW is a form of Marxism. :)

Wait - before I continue, I need clarification on two things.

1. Do you think that socialism necessarily precludes an effort/reward system?

2. Do you acknowledge that Gold is not necessary in WoW, even if your country's actual currency is?

I'll post a real reply when I get back from lunch and buying a pair of tennis shoes...

What about twinking? What about having friends to help you out when you first start?

Tetris.

Everyone starts out with the same blocks and ends with the same blocks.  Rewards for accomplishments are not tangible and do not give you advantages over others.  Your legacy is not remembered by what you had/owned, but by what you did (your life's work vs your life's wealth).

Silly Mafoo.  Say my name 50 times and I will eventually appear...