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Forums - General - They myth that is man made global warming.

akuma587 said:
elprincipe said:
akuma587 said:
Here are the actual cost estimates to dispel some of the misinformation:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2009/Jun/26/house_narrowly_passes_major_energy_climate_bill.html

The CBO estimated the bill would cost an average household $175 a year, the EPA $80 to $110 a year.

So, don't you guys agree that if you tax a behavior people are less likely to do it? I hear you guys say all the time that taxing rich people discourages investment. So wouldn't taxing the use of carbon based fuels significantly discourage people's use of those fuels?

And I don't see how you guys can argue that the government is not investing in alternative energy. The government is pouring TONS of movie into wind, solar, and also nuclear energy initiatives.

This CBO study is VERY suspect.  Even if you believe them (I certainly don't), they don't account for massive effects on GDP (trillions of dollars lost) and job losses (up to 2+ million per year).  Remember, under the insane bill that passed the House (certainly the worst piece of legislation passed by either chamber in my lifetime), we can expect electricity prices to double and gasoline/natural gas/home heating oil prices to rise by 60+ percent.  So remember that everything you buy will be 2+ times more expensive, since these things take electricity and fuel to produce and transport.  And you thought groceries were expensive now, wait until a gallon of milk is $9 on sale.  Thanks Congress!  Good thing we prevented that 0.5 degrees of warming by 2100!

Ironically Republicans in Congress didn't believe it either even though they regularly laud the CBO estimates when it makes Obama look bad.  But they certainly wouldn't pick and choose like that now would they.

Of course they would, and did.  Democrats do it too.  That's what politicians do, unfortunately.  But lookat the CBO study: by their own admission it doesn't consider GDP decreases and job losses, a large part of the cost of the insane Waxman-Markey bill.



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highwaystar101 said:
elprincipe said:
highwaystar101 said:
elprincipe said:
highwaystar101 said:
With all respect I can see why people like to debate this point as it is not a black and white issue by any means. But can people stop saying 'global warming'? All it does is show that you don't know much about climate change, the earth isn't 'just' going to get warmer, just more extreme.

Why should we call it "climate change"? Because the globe is no longer warming so they needed a new term? Open your eyes, man; that's called propaganda.

What "extreme" things are you talking about? I'd really like to know. Global cyclone strength is at its lowest recorded level, to take an example, despite doomsayers claiming we would have more frequent and stronger hurricanes. Please give examples of "extreme" weather you believe is caused by global warming (sorry, climate change). I'm very interested.

You needed examples of the extreme weather conditions, I guess taking two seconds to click on the links I provided was to taxing then. But then again you cut them out when quoting so hey, they must not have been important enough.

Oh and the globe is getting warmer, it's the heat that will cause a climate shift in many parts of the world, that's why global warming is an incorrect term. Who's feeding me this propaganda then? The scientists who run a quest for knowledge not propaganda? No, the only propaganda is the media overblowing it. It's like that old saying PHd students have about the media "A clever mans words published in a silly salesmans words". (or something to that effect)

I wont say climate change isn't happening, because it is, all my point is that the media has overblown it a lot. But that doesn't stop the fact that we have to make very small changes to make a difference.

So your evidence that global warming is causing "extreme weather events" is two rainy summers in England? I'm sorry, trying not to laugh, but you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

Floods, lakes drying up, increasingly violent hurricanes, Desertification, Melting antarctic ice

Floods and lakes drying up happen all the time.

Hurricane strength has been decreasing on average:

For good measure, tornado strength has also declined:

Desertification has nothing to do with global warming; it's caused by poor land use practices that lead to erosion.

Antarctic ice is at or near record highs.  I think you mean ice shelves breaking off, which happens as they grow and break off into the ocean.  This is not a new phenomenon and is not caused by global warming (how could it be when temperatures are below freezing in the area?).  Try here:  http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25648336-30417,00.html

Here is a graph of Antarctic ice extent to show what I mean:

 



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^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?



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Final-Fan said:
^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?

 

Yes, but there is evidence that solar flares have been factors in these storms.

 

The conventional thinking is that warmer waters increase the storms (and thats true), but why does the additional heat have to come from below the storm? Additional heat hitting the top of the storm could do the same thing.

 

At the times of our largest hurricanes, we had lots of solar activity.



Final-Fan said:
^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?

The ice is fascinating to watch.  It should tell you that you're not getting the full picture if you consider that, as all the media was hyping the "lowest-ever" ice extent for the Arctic in 2007 (remember, this has only been measured accurately since 1979), you saw no articles even mention that the Antarctic ice extent was the highest ever recorded that very same year.  The Arctic ice last year increased 9% and the Antarctic ice decreased slightly from its record high.  But again, we have been measuring these things for such a short period of time it's extemely difficult to draw meaningful conclusions.  Thirty years is nothing at all on a geologic time scale, not even a blink.

I'm not as familiar with hurricanes other than the raw numbers.  There has been more damage in recent years from them, but remember that more people are living on the coasts now so there is more and more to destroy.  Hurricanes are highly variable in terms of numbers and intensity, so it's also something where it's very difficult to derive a pattern.  I've heard that ocean current patterns cause a 20- or 30-year cycle for hurricanes.  Also heard that global warming would increase their intensity.  However, 3,000 buoys launched in 2003 have shown a decrease in ocean heat content, so I'm having a hard time seeing how this fits into that theory:



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TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?

 

Yes, but there is evidence that solar flares have been factors in these storms.

 

The conventional thinking is that warmer waters increase the storms (and thats true), but why does the additional heat have to come from below the storm? Additional heat hitting the top of the storm could do the same thing.

 

At the times of our largest hurricanes, we had lots of solar activity.

From what I understand I would have to say you're wrong here. The sheer quantity of thermal energy held in water is massive compared to the atmosphere above it. There simply isn't enough energy for the storm to be powered from the atmosphere or the sun.

 



Tease.

TheRealMafoo said:

Glad to see that what I have been saying for years is now going mainstream.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html

 


Wall Street Journal is mainstream...yeah right...its a right wing rag



 

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Squilliam said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?

 

Yes, but there is evidence that solar flares have been factors in these storms.

 

The conventional thinking is that warmer waters increase the storms (and thats true), but why does the additional heat have to come from below the storm? Additional heat hitting the top of the storm could do the same thing.

 

At the times of our largest hurricanes, we had lots of solar activity.

From what I understand I would have to say you're wrong here. The sheer quantity of thermal energy held in water is massive compared to the atmosphere above it. There simply isn't enough energy for the storm to be powered from the atmosphere or the sun.

 

We don't know for sure that it does not contribute. Several years back the northern east coast of the US and Canada lost power. Millions of people.

The reason was a massive solar flair hit the earth at that time, and the ground could not absorb enough energy, so it went into the lines and overloaded the system.

If you had asked a scientist before that happened if it was possible, almost all of them would have said no.

This is just a small example of why I hate this legislation. We know far less then we think we know. Trying to change the world on something as unproven as man made global warming is just crazy.



@Avinash, Every newspaper source here is from Rupert Murdoch, owner of News corporation, the largest media empire in the world and a right wing empire. He owns Fox News, thats all you need to know.



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TheRealMafoo said:
Squilliam said:

From what I understand I would have to say you're wrong here. The sheer quantity of thermal energy held in water is massive compared to the atmosphere above it. There simply isn't enough energy for the storm to be powered from the atmosphere or the sun.

 

We don't know for sure that it does not contribute. Several years back the northern east coast of the US and Canada lost power. Millions of people.

The reason was a massive solar flair hit the earth at that time, and the ground could not absorb enough energy, so it went into the lines and overloaded the system.

If you had asked a scientist before that happened if it was possible, almost all of them would have said no.

This is just a small example of why I hate this legislation. We know far less then we think we know. Trying to change the world on something as unproven as man made global warming is just crazy.

The energies involved in a hurricaine are massive, you simply could not get that energy from anywhere bar warm/tropical ocean water because water itself has such a high heat capacity. Solar irradiance is miniscule next to the sheer quantity of energy being sucked from the water itself.

I don't really know the specifics of the solar flare which caused the magnetic storm in the northern hemisphere, im a southerner you see?

I don't disagree with your position on the climate in general though. I think there are far more pressing matters such as water quality which are being neglected in favour of something which needs more study and less action. I personally don't understand why they haven't built a couple of massive computer systems the likes of which the world has never seen before to you know... understand the issues better or something.



Tease.