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Forums - General - Suspected U.S. Strike Kills at Least 60 in Pakistan

Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Even then though there is the problem that the big name presidents have fanboys.

It's like Videogame criticism but to an even greater degree. You don't get a doctorate in history or political science because your an unbiased observer.

Oh yeah I totally agree really. But just like videogames its impossible to have a truly objective view of a president thats worth anything. I mean it'd be like rating games purely on the number of polygons and the resolution of the textures.

Anything thats subjective has inherent human bias and any ranking of presidents by historians will have bias - probably just less bias and more information than a list by the general public.

There is bias... then there is fanboysim.

For example... Bias is... "I like SRPGs better therefore i will rank them higher."

Fanboyism is "Nobody wants to flail they're body parts around... wait OMG Natal is going to rule!"

A lot of presidents get a pass because they did something awesome along with doing something good.

Won a major war... well that makes up for infringing everyons constitutional rights during it?

Gave all white men the ability to vote?  Who cares that you almost wiped out countless native american tribes!

etc.

Historical rankings of the presidents tend to be "ends justify the means."

 



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Kasz216 said:
outlawauron said:
Rath said:
1). The BBC at least has a very neutral tone in its news articles, it just reports news.

2). Comparing somebodies positive facetime to Bush is foolish as Bush is already considered to be a fairly poor president.

http://www.c-span.org/PresidentialSurvey/Overall-Ranking.aspx

Thats the latest poll of historians. He doesn't exactly have a great rating there.

3). Obama is more popular with Americans than G.W.Bush. Therefore perhaps he gets more positive stories because he is actually (in the eyes of the majority of Americans) a better president than G.W.Bush.

Well, that list is complete bull. What did George Washington do, since 2000, to go up a place?

And President Bush had great ratings at the start of his presidency as well.

Change in how his and other presidencies are seen historically... and slight change in historian/poltician.  In general it takes a good 10-15 years before you settle at about the same place.

The Sienna polls are the best ones though.

That said, then why did George Washington pass Franklin Roosevelt. Both presidents whom served their terms many decades ago and well outside your 10-15 window. I'm jus saying that I think the polls are little silly. Must polls are I believe.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

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outlawauron said:
Kasz216 said:
outlawauron said:
Rath said:
1). The BBC at least has a very neutral tone in its news articles, it just reports news.

2). Comparing somebodies positive facetime to Bush is foolish as Bush is already considered to be a fairly poor president.

http://www.c-span.org/PresidentialSurvey/Overall-Ranking.aspx

Thats the latest poll of historians. He doesn't exactly have a great rating there.

3). Obama is more popular with Americans than G.W.Bush. Therefore perhaps he gets more positive stories because he is actually (in the eyes of the majority of Americans) a better president than G.W.Bush.

Well, that list is complete bull. What did George Washington do, since 2000, to go up a place?

And President Bush had great ratings at the start of his presidency as well.

Change in how his and other presidencies are seen historically... and slight change in historian/poltician.  In general it takes a good 10-15 years before you settle at about the same place.

The Sienna polls are the best ones though.

That said, then why did George Washington pass Franklin Roosevelt. Both presidents whom served their terms many decades ago and well outside your 10-15 window. I'm jus saying that I think the polls are little silly. Must polls are I believe.

FDR? plenty of reasons.

1)  It's lately been found that he suggested that the terms of surrender during WW2 should be the castration of all german males.

2) The press was complicit in a lot of negative things that would of destroyed his presidency.

3) The has been a book recently that's greatly detailed the many many basic rights that he committed.  Stuff that would make the patriot act look like the Bill of Rights in comparison.  This is stuff... even most historians would like to ignore since WW2 is supposed to be the only morally unambigious war in history... and FDR is supposed to be one of the greatest of all time... and also the sole "proof" for Kensiyan economics even if it dosen't seem to bear out.

So.. really the reasons FDR is inflated and may be dropping is because people are shining light on a lot of the unbelievably bad stuff he did.

Basically if you thought Bush was bad... FDR was worse.  It's just he helped win WW2. 

By secrelty going against the Congress, Public opinion etc.  (and much more, the list is dizzying.)

 



Rath said:
@Football. Its only a brilliant attack on the taliban if it killed taliban and only taliban.

If any civilians were killed then its extremely counterproductive.

Even if it was 59 civilians and 1 taliban It was a good strike. Stop talking shit about this civilian nonsense. Wah people died. get over it. What makes it okay to kill a taliban member? Nothing. Why dont you cry over them dying?

@ Kasz

I have never liked FDR, but if it was a public fallout then I would have expected a larger drop.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

Check out MyAnimeList and my Game Collection. Owner of the 5 millionth post.

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JEDE3 said:
Rath said:
@Football. Its only a brilliant attack on the taliban if it killed taliban and only taliban.

If any civilians were killed then its extremely counterproductive.

Even if it was 59 civilians and 1 taliban It was a good strike. Stop talking shit about this civilian nonsense. Wah people died. get over it. What makes it okay to kill a taliban member? Nothing. Why dont you cry over them dying?


*facepalm*

What makes it ok for the USA to kill Taliban? The fact that the US is currently engaged in a war against the Taliban. In war one of the aims is generally to kill the enemy.

What makes killing civilians a bad thing? Apart from the huge moral and legal objections its strategically terrible. The killing of civilians causes the people to look at the USA as an invading power and the Taliban as protectors encouraging further people to radicalise and become militants. Hence why the new general in charge of operations in Afghanistan has made it his primary strategy to concentrate on protecting civilians.

People like you in the military are the exact reason why the USA has so much trouble gaining acceptance in countries that they 'liberate', its to strong a focus on military force and killing the enemy over looking the need to capture the hearts and minds of the populace. Its a large part of the reason why America lost the war in Vietnam, had so much trouble in Iraq and is now losing in Afghanistan.



outlawauron said:
@ Kasz

I have never liked FDR, but if it was a public fallout then I would have expected a larger drop.

Well he did still defeat the Nazis.  The worlds "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevilist"@tm government.

 



Kasz216 said:
outlawauron said:
@ Kasz

I have never liked FDR, but if it was a public fallout then I would have expected a larger drop.

Well he did still defeat the Nazis.  The worlds "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevilist"@tm government.

 

He was president when the Nazis were defeated. Not really the same thing. The Russians defeated the Nazis. We just helped.

 



TheRealMafoo said:
Kasz216 said:
outlawauron said:
@ Kasz

I have never liked FDR, but if it was a public fallout then I would have expected a larger drop.

Well he did still defeat the Nazis.  The worlds "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevilist"@tm government.

 

He was president when the Nazis were defeated. Not really the same thing. The Russians defeated the Nazis. We just helped.

 

I know that and you know that... but you know.  History has it's FDR fanboys.  For example most historians hold that if FDR didn't illegally help the English by bypassing the consitution, illegally impirsoning someone who caught him and going against the countrys and Congress's will that the UK would of fell and Russia would of never had a chance.



Kasz216 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Kasz216 said:
outlawauron said:
@ Kasz

I have never liked FDR, but if it was a public fallout then I would have expected a larger drop.

Well he did still defeat the Nazis.  The worlds "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevilist"@tm government.

 

He was president when the Nazis were defeated. Not really the same thing. The Russians defeated the Nazis. We just helped.

 

I know that and you know that... but you know.  History has it's FDR fanboys.  For example most historians hold that if FDR didn't illegally help the English by bypassing the consitution, illegally impirsoning someone who caught him and going against the countrys and Congress's will that the UK would of fell and Russia would of never had a chance.

Yea. Crazy how the world really works.

For example, Andrew Jackson defeated the British in the greatest battle in the war of 1812. The problem was, he did it two weeks after the British had already surrendered. He didn't win the war, but everyone in the US thought he did.

It was the leading cause of him winning the presidency. Something that didn't really happen (it was a great battle victory however. Defeating the general that took down Napoleon and his army.)