ironman said: MikeB said: ironman said: MikeB said: ironman said: MikeB said: kowenicki said: @mikeb no you wouldnt... you'd get fired. I am a bit of an idealist, I want to push platforms as much as possible if I were involved. Both 360 and PS3 versions need to be great, both are capable of wowing audiences. But that means taking very good advantage of Blu-Ray and the Cell processor as well. I don't go for second best, but I'm also flexible, a Ferrari from Microsoft may change my mind (for now...). You'de get fired for costing the company too much in time money and resources. Why utilize the ble ray and the cell when the 360 version runs the same, it's not like you would make any more money on the game. Infact, if you spent the time trying to maximize, then you would lose money on the labor side of things (more time put into the game while still selling it at the same retail price), or the retail side where you would have to sell the game for more, (I highly doubt many people would notice a huge enough differance that they would pay more for the game on the PS3). It's not lazy developers, it's smart business. Nah, I would let my devs contact PS3 devs (I know some myself) to help them out a bit with pointers. Development assets are usually of much higher quality compared to in-game assets anyhow. The 360 version will not run the same, but instead as good as possible (which should be great nevertheless with sacrifices here and there). For the long run I only see major benefits, it's likely the streaming and multi-threading efforts will benefit future development anyhow. It's not like future game consoles and PCs get ever lower specced. I'd just put long term gains above short term benefits. I don't view R&D as a waste, but rather as an investment. You wouldn't see it that way if you had any concept of how to run a business. WHy put extra R&D into a product that already runs great just so you can give fanboys something to gloat about. Like it or not, everybody is looking out for their bottom line, and tweaking the games to fully use blu ray and the cell would end up being costly either to the developer, or the consumer. Also, People who bought the 360 version would feel betrayed because the PS3 version was "better". You lose customers that way, you don't gain them. Save the R&D for a time when it actually pays off.   Actually I have, that's how we are succesful as a business. We provide as many bells and whistles as possible. We want to be perceived as being the best, we want to be the ones to be perceived as putting in the most effort in the services we can provide. If the product is better than anything else on the 360 I don't think you would loose customers at all, just gain respect for pushing other platforms to best of your ability as well. Are you upset your next door neighboor runs Crysis at full quality while you can't? If so, it's just time to upgrade. I don't know what business you have, but in the real world, providing all the bells and whistles is not always practical, such is the case with multiplat devs. You put extra time and money into developing a product that would alianate over half your user base, and you couldn't sell it for more because nobody would buy it. That is bad business. For the PS3 exclusive guys I have no doubt they have a lot to gain from fully utilizing the PS3 hardware.

I know competitors compete with pricing and more power to them, we are happy to compete with them. But our customers want to see the best possible results and there's room for our approach as well. Actually we are significantly outperforming our competitors and upping the standards in general. We've got some very big contracts which already is changing the face of the market we are competing in. It allowed us to gain respect and full support from the governing body our competitors are dependent upon as well.

kowenicki said: @mikb what do you do?

he sells Playstation systems

kowenicki said: @mikb what do you do?

I'm a physical therapist / manager running a clinic. We have various doctors, masseurs, saunas, salt baths, etc (the latter 3 proving proper conditions rather than direct therapy relating to relief) providing all the bells and whistles we can provide in our clinic. We are part of a bigger consortium ranging from dentists to dietists, in cases we work directly with the next door hospital. Our customers are expected to invest a lot more time and discipline than at our competitors. Providing results is the emphasis, we're not shy on investing to achieve our goals.

We adopt a Toaist-like philosophy and our clinic is as timeless, dedicated, inspiring and restful as possible.

MikeB said: kowenicki said: @mikb what do you do? I'm a physical therapist / manager running a clinic. We have various doctors, masseurs, saunas, salt baths, etc (the latter 3 proving proper conditions rather than direct therapy relating to relief) providing all the bells and whistles we can provide in our clinic. We are part of a bigger consortium ranging from dentists to dietists, in cases we work directly with the next door hospital. Our customers are expected to invest a lot more time and discipline than at our competitors. Providing results is the emphasis, we're not shy on investing to achieve our goals. We adopt a Toaist-like philosophy and our clinic is as timeless, dedicated, inspiring and restful as possible.

See, Mike, that works in your setting. this Utopian idea of how game devs should perform just would not work when put to practice. A game dev makes one game and hopes to turn a profit on it. They cannot do that if they are spending more time developing the game for one system than the other. that is a good way to LOSE money. You as a business owner should understand that the bottom line is what counts here. And putting more resources into one version of the game than is necesary would not help anybody except the PS3 fanboys. 

I'm pretty sure if the PS3 was truly capable of Xbox 360 quality cross platform games it would have happened by now. Xbox and Gamecube pretty much improved PS2 games from the get go, even with the most conventional architectures.

Sonys real problem is they need to invest more into first party development, looking at some of their early stuff it's not really evolved at all, Motorstorm 2 looks just like Motorstorm 1, A Crack in time looks just like Tools of Destruction, Uncharted 2 looks just like Uncharted 1. Hilarious now looking back with them all claiming they were only a 30% power. Even their current heavyweight Killzone 2 which they sank $61 million into has fallen behind cross platform engines like CE3 where they can do both HDR & Deferred rendering simultaneously (in addition to better physics and bigger levels).

The cross platform situation is set, all the big engines are better on 360, UE3, Frameworks 1 & 2, Tech 5 and CryEngine 3. Dozens if titles are going to demonstrate this over the years.

Sony needs to really make their sequels quantum leaps over their predecessors - like Forza 3 - to make an impression, not expansion packs.

kowenicki said: so it isnt your company? i thought you said it was earlier...

No, I'm part of a core team, but I have a boss. We however share a similar phylophosy and he fully respects my professionalism and contribution. He's has a MBA and runs a martial arts school as a side-business/hobby as well (I provide some of the workshops at his martial arts festivals).  I provide my technical expertise for all the clinics.

i remeber what the same people told about blu-ray and hddvd....

@MikeB

You stated you often seen 360 fans agree the PS3 exclusives are 'well beyond' the 360.  I rather doubt this. If they are a 360 fan they know the exclusives on the PS3 are not 'well beyond'.  Instead they might be a bit better at most.  'well beyond' doesn't really tell us anything. Are you trying the say the PS3 games are significantly better?  If so by what margin? 10%, 100%?  'well beyond' sounds like some eastern woo woo rather than anything definitive or proveable that we could sink our teeth into.   This sounds like Sonyfanboyism trying to blame the opposition for their own biases.

For your question on not seeing enough on picture quality perhaps something to look at is the market you are talking about.   For example, 720p and 1080p sets have different seating differences.  Polls in the USA are showing that 40-65% of the 1080p market are sitting at a distance where the two really aren't that different.  http://gizmodo.com/5280355/guess-what-many-of-you-wasted-money-on-your-1080p-tv-but-theres-hope is a good article conveying this information.   So, if you're seeing 1/2 the people sitting at a distance where the picture quality isn't noticeable then yes you are going to see a significant number of people conveying that that picture quality isn't noticeable.  Simply because it isn't in their setup.

Thanks for the Atari vs Amiga.  Amazingly the 'superior' Amiga is dead... Sometimes this happens to superior equipment when the manufactures fail to miss the market.

@ briank

Welcome, nice to see another Amiga buddy around here. I wouldn't go as far as claiming most 360 fans would agree on almost anything the PS3 might have an edge on. However 360 users in general is something else.

For example I haven't seen any 360 fan acknowledge PS3 exclusives in general have pushed the story telling aspect of games much further than 360 exclusives so far. I think this is rather obvious, I think some of the most hyped 360 excluvies have been rather emotionless. For example Gears 2, Mass Effect and Oblivion (once upon a time a 360 GOTY exclusive as well). I think Bioshock so far has been best attempt on the 360 so far at trying to go for a deeper story and presentation.

Just compare acting performances and presentation:

Some highly praised XBox 360 exclusives:

Mass Effect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbgctpmWKC8 (IMO, look like puppets)
Gears 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idVmo37OdAM

Compare to some PS3 exclusives with their story telling:

Ratchet and Clank: Tools of Destruction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmFD2Gy5vgc&feature=fvw (funny, pixar-like)
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cHl0IJ9OUU (adventurous, funny and tension)
Heavenly Sword
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4E7U48mPlQ (mysterious, funny and touching)

IMO a top modern game is able to bring up such emotions, from what I have seen in 360 exclusives so far, most often the story telling is rather amateurish and uninspiring in comparison.

What 360 game has really convincing facial expressions like shown above (presentation)?

Maybe Alan Wake will up the standards on the 360, Remedy is a good developing company. But looking at upcoming games like Uncharted 2, God of War 3 (anger), The Last Guard (touching), Heavy Rain (thrilling), etc I think PS3 exclusives will continue to provide more immersive story telling and presentation.



Nothing lasts forever.

MikeB said: kowenicki said: @mikb what do you do? I'm a physical therapist / manager running a clinic.

MikeB, are you sure your not a patient? would make much more sense....