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TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

How is forcing you to work 50 hours for my benefit not slavery?

"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

It was said before, but if you dont like taxes then feel free to leave human society.

Why do socialists always group paying taxes, and spending the money as one thing? I never said I didn’t want to pay taxes.

What they are collected for matters.

Well then we agree, I don't want any of my taxes going to paying for the military or the detention centers, or any of the paychecks of republicans, I too feel that my taxes should only go to certain things, so you can pay forwhat you want to pay, and i'll pay for what I want to pay



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Avinash_Tyagi said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

How is forcing you to work 50 hours for my benefit not slavery?

"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

It was said before, but if you dont like taxes then feel free to leave human society.

Why do socialists always group paying taxes, and spending the money as one thing? I never said I didn’t want to pay taxes.

What they are collected for matters.

Well then we agree, I don't want any of my taxes going to paying for the military or the detention centers, or any of the paychecks of republicans, I too feel that my taxes should only go to certain things, so you can pay forwhat you want to pay, and i'll pay for what I want to pay

You miss the point.

Let’s say I wanted into McDonalds, and the guy in front of me ordered a #1 and was charged $4.00. I then order the #1 and am charged $5.00. I ask why, and they said "well, it really cost $4.50 to make it and turn a profit, but you looked better off than the guy in front of you, so I charged you for some of his food."

ManusJustus’s argument is the same as if I said “I don’t want to pay that” as meaning “I want my food for free”.

I expect to pay taxes, and to pay for a system of government. I even expect to pay more to protect the poor.

I will never be happy with being forced to pay to take care of the poor. Taking care of them is there job, or something I should be allowed to give my money to help.

It being forced upon me is indenturing me. We can talk until we are blue in the face, but it won’t change that fact.



TheRealMafoo said:

I expect to pay taxes, and to pay for a system of government. I even expect to pay more to protect the poor.

I will never be happy with being forced to pay to take care of the poor.

There you go again, making up a categorization system for what is right and wrong when there isnt a fundamental difference.  So you want to pay to protect the poor, but not take care of the poor.  How is taking care of the poor not protecting them, and how is protecting them not taking care of them? 

I said this before, a point you tactfully ignored, that you are making up a difference where there is none, and that difference is based on emotion and is free of logic.

Answer this question, if anything for your own sake so that you can better undersand yourself, why is it good to pay to protect the poor from criminals but bad to protect them from cancer?



TheRealMafoo said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

How is forcing you to work 50 hours for my benefit not slavery?

"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

It was said before, but if you dont like taxes then feel free to leave human society.

Why do socialists always group paying taxes, and spending the money as one thing? I never said I didn’t want to pay taxes.

What they are collected for matters.

Well then we agree, I don't want any of my taxes going to paying for the military or the detention centers, or any of the paychecks of republicans, I too feel that my taxes should only go to certain things, so you can pay forwhat you want to pay, and i'll pay for what I want to pay

You miss the point.

Let’s say I wanted into McDonalds, and the guy in front of me ordered a #1 and was charged $4.00. I then order the #1 and am charged $5.00. I ask why, and they said "well, it really cost $4.50 to make it and turn a profit, but you looked better off than the guy in front of you, so I charged you for some of his food."

ManusJustus’s argument is the same as if I said “I don’t want to pay that” as meaning “I want my food for free”.

I expect to pay taxes, and to pay for a system of government. I even expect to pay more to protect the poor.

I will never be happy with being forced to pay to take care of the poor. Taking care of them is there job, or something I should be allowed to give my money to help.

It being forced upon me is indenturing me. We can talk until we are blue in the face, but it won’t change that fact.

Ok, I will never be happy paying for an F-22 Raptor to protect you, I can protect myself, why should I be forced to pay to protect others, it is being forced upon me, see it works in many ways



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

TheRealMafoo said:

You miss the point.

Let’s say I wanted into McDonalds, and the guy in front of me ordered a #1 and was charged $4.00. I then order the #1 and am charged $5.00. I ask why, and they said "well, it really cost $4.50 to make it and turn a profit, but you looked better off than the guy in front of you, so I charged you for some of his food."

ManusJustus’s argument is the same as if I said “I don’t want to pay that” as meaning “I want my food for free”.

I expect to pay taxes, and to pay for a system of government. I even expect to pay more to protect the poor.

I will never be happy with being forced to pay to take care of the poor. Taking care of them is there job, or something I should be allowed to give my money to help.

It being forced upon me is indenturing me. We can talk until we are blue in the face, but it won’t change that fact.

So you're willing to trade away some freedom for a military and police force to protect you from invaders and criminals, but you're not willing to trade some freedom for protection from starvation and disease. Some are willing to do the opposite, or to pay for both, or to pay for neither.

The trick is that we all lose some measure of freedom just for tacitly signing the social contract. And the decision as to how much freedom we pay, and what goods we get in exchange for that freedom, is decided by the society, and administrated by the government. We're all 'enslaved' by society, and limited to our small role in the larger machine and what influence we can manage to claim. You're not any more of a slave for having to pay for a hobo's food stamps than a pacifist is a slave for having to pay for cluster bombs.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

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Avinash_Tyagi said:
HappySqurriel said:

Unemployment rates do very little to tell the whole picture on employment ...

In 2006 France's participation rate was (roughly) 70% while the United State's participation rate was (approximately) 75%, which means that (unless there has been a dramatic shift in participation rates) the US probably still has higher employment that France even with a higher unemployment rate.

That's only assuming that those who aren't participating actually want to work, for all we know Squirrel those could be stay at home mothers and fathers who don't want to work, remember the social support provided in europe is better than in the US, so they may feel no need to work, and instead may prefer to take care of their children, what we do know is that of those who are actually seeking work, France and europe currently have a lower percentage unable to find work. That kind of disrupts the argument that stronger social services results in some horrible economic condition.

Part of the reason your choice of France stuck out is it is used as a case study for the dangers of having a high minimum wage. France's participation rate for people above a certain age (I think it is 25 or 30, but I could be wrong) is actually fairly similar to countries like Canada but they have had an (amazingly) low participation rate for youth workers. One of the assumptions is that a lot of "bad" jobs that pay minimum wage and employ young people have been eliminated because of the high minimum wage; and because few of their friends have jobs, and most of their friends continue to live off of their parents incomes, there is a theory that this low participation rate is caused because the youth worker doesn't see a need to work.

Basically ...

The decision to increase the minimum wage created high unemplyment for the youth workers, expectations about the working and lifestyle habits of young workers changed, and because of these new expectations the youth workers don't see any need to seek out work and therefore the participation rate among them has dropped.



HappySqurriel said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
HappySqurriel said:

Unemployment rates do very little to tell the whole picture on employment ...

In 2006 France's participation rate was (roughly) 70% while the United State's participation rate was (approximately) 75%, which means that (unless there has been a dramatic shift in participation rates) the US probably still has higher employment that France even with a higher unemployment rate.

That's only assuming that those who aren't participating actually want to work, for all we know Squirrel those could be stay at home mothers and fathers who don't want to work, remember the social support provided in europe is better than in the US, so they may feel no need to work, and instead may prefer to take care of their children, what we do know is that of those who are actually seeking work, France and europe currently have a lower percentage unable to find work. That kind of disrupts the argument that stronger social services results in some horrible economic condition.

Part of the reason your choice of France stuck out is it is used as a case study for the dangers of having a high minimum wage. France's participation rate for people above a certain age (I think it is 25 or 30, but I could be wrong) is actually fairly similar to countries like Canada but they have had an (amazingly) low participation rate for youth workers. One of the assumptions is that a lot of "bad" jobs that pay minimum wage and employ young people have been eliminated because of the high minimum wage; and because few of their friends have jobs, and most of their friends continue to live off of their parents incomes, there is a theory that this low participation rate is caused because the youth worker doesn't see a need to work.

Basically ...

The decision to increase the minimum wage created high unemplyment for the youth workers, expectations about the working and lifestyle habits of young workers changed, and because of these new expectations the youth workers don't see any need to seek out work and therefore the participation rate among them has dropped.

Thing is like you yourself are pointing out these are youth workers who are living off their families, first off its not like they would b making big salaries anyways nor is it like they are dependent on getting a job, so there's not a huge loss from this if they aren't participating in the workforce, so some pimply teen doesn't get a job flipping burgers after school, I don't think the economy is hinging on them.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

famousringo said:

So you're willing to trade away some freedom for a military and police force to protect you from invaders and criminals, but you're not willing to trade some freedom for protection from starvation and disease. 

I protect myself from starvation and disease every day. I am not willing to give up my liberties to have the government protect them.



TheRealMafoo said:
famousringo said:

So you're willing to trade away some freedom for a military and police force to protect you from invaders and criminals, but you're not willing to trade some freedom for protection from starvation and disease. 

I protect myself from starvation and disease every day. I am not willing to give up my liberties to have the government protect them.

Uh, yeah. That's what the text you quoted says all right...

I think I'm gonna have to go back to staying out of the off-topic threads.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

I expect to pay taxes, and to pay for a system of government. I even expect to pay more to protect the poor.

I will never be happy with being forced to pay to take care of the poor.

There you go again, making up a categorization system for what is right and wrong when there isnt a fundamental difference.  So you want to pay to protect the poor, but not take care of the poor.  How is taking care of the poor not protecting them, and how is protecting them not taking care of them? 

I said this before, a point you tactfully ignored, that you are making up a difference where there is none, and that difference is based on emotion and is free of logic.

Answer this question, if anything for your own sake so that you can better undersand yourself, why is it good to pay to protect the poor from criminals but bad to protect them from cancer?

Exactly.  Mafoo makes up these arbitrary categories that when you compare them to other things are really strikingly similar.

I'll list quite a few:

Farm subsidies

Favorable tax deductions for rich people and businesses

Allowing certain types of financial instruments to remain unregulated or tax-free

Government contracts with private businesses

Here is a blurb on corporate welfare:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230

The federal government spent $92 billion in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses and private- sector corporate entities — expenditures commonly referred to as "corporate welfare" — in fiscal year 2006. The definition of business subsidies used in this report is broader than that used by the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic Analysis, which recently put the costs of direct business subsidies at $57 billion in 2005. For the purposes of this study, "corporate welfare" is defined as any federal spending program that provides payments or unique benefits and advantages to specific companies or industries.

Supporters of corporate welfare programs often justify them as remedying some sort of market failure. Often the market failures on which the programs are predicated are either overblown or don't exist. Yet the federal government continues to subsidize some of the biggest companies in America. Boeing, Xerox, IBM, Motorola, Dow Chemical, General Electric, and others have received millions in taxpayer-funded benefits through programs like the Advanced Technology Program and the Export-Import Bank. In addition, the federal crop subsidy programs continue to fund the wealthiest farmers.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson