Prohibitively expensive on multiple discs? What like Lost Oddessy? I picked a mint copy up for a tenner.

this argument is simple. bluray was the right choice for ps3 simply because sony had a vested interest in blurays success and without it being included in ps3 the fight against hd-dvd may not have worked out this way.
ps nobody buys dvds anymore. well maybe those poor americans do
the only reason ps3 doesnt sell better is again the lack of expendable income from recent events. the ps3 is the better quality machine with a better 2009 game catalogue

@grand17

"this argument is simple. bluray was the right choice for ps3 simply because sony had a vested interest in blurays success and without it being included in ps3 the fight against hd-dvd may not have worked out this way."

not in 100% agreement an here is why.

It would have worked out that way. it would have taken much longer though..the 11 largest optical drive manuf. decided on JAVA and Toshiba made it pretty much a no brainer not to support HD DVD for optical drive manuf. because Toshiba priced it way too low that none of the other Optical drive manuf. could have made any money off of HD DVD.

as for buying DVD's plenty of people still buy DVD's

poor American's is a fact yes , but that's is nothing other countries do not have themselves. there are poor people in every country in the world.

as for better Quality Machine:

My opinion that all 3 are good Quality Machines..but some just took longer to get to better quality in other area's than the other's:

with Microsoft : it took longer with hardware

with Sony: it took longer with software

with Nintendo: it took longer to get a better quality Online network

all three had area's that were not the greatest but they all have been working on that to be better, than from the start.

as for haveing the better 2009 catalog...for me it's all what game's you like it's your OPINION but i Think all three have a great line up for 2009 for me that is.

@ grand 17,

Joeorc is correct, that each machine has its advantages, but from my perspective the difference between the two HD consoles is negligible. The Wii has a VASTLY different catalogue of types of games than the others, but the X360 and PS3 have eerily similar games, just like the last generation. The X360 probably has more exclusives than the PS3, so if I had to pick a better catalogue btw those two only I would go with MS.

Also, I take exception to your comment about poor folks. First off, if you talk to any self-made millionaire or billionaire, they'll tell you that they were always frugal, even with small purchases (like movies). Are you saying that rich people won't buy DVD's anymore, simply because a newer (albeit not better) format exists? That's ridiculous. Many things still aren't available on Bluray, and if they are then they're not just slightly more expensive, but sometimes twice the price. Why would you fork out more money for a High-def version of say Family Guy? You won't notice the higher resolution.

Also, keep in mind that there are MANY drawbacks of Bluray, not the least of which is the dominant position of DVDs players. If you want to buy a new SUV, there's a good chance it has an option to have built-in DVD players in the backs of the seats, for the rear passengers (aka, kids) to watch movies on. There's no option for BR players. If you have kids, you would've realized how naive your statement is concerning DVDs. They are simply cheaper, easier, standardized, and meet the needs of most people, and will for the foreseeable future. HD-DVD didn't fail because of Bluray, it failed because the entire High-def disk market failed as a whole. People didn't want to pay for upgrading in 2006, and they still largely don't. Sony only stayed in the market with their BR because they leveraged their entire future on BR (including the PS3). Since Toshiba didn't have nearly as much to lose by pulling out of the HD market as Sony did/does, it was an no-brainer for them to cut their loses.

the majority of what you just stated is not true at all..Moondeep, while i respect your opinion, Blu-Ray does not have any drawbacks vs' DVD any more than DVD had with the CD format. the very fact that a single layer Blu-Ray 25 GB disc is cheaper to produce than a DL-DVD9 .as for offering a Blu-Ray playback offered for Auto's yes there is..and it still play's DVD's but on such a small screen the upgrade over DVD for auto's is prob. not worth it because of such a small screen, though that just means you can still play your DVD's and Blu-Ray's there already option's if you want them  .

example:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VYZVBC/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=3285522565&ref=pd_sl_83ewy9f4qc_b

@moondeep:

you stated this:

"easier, standardized, and meet the needs of most people, and will for the foreseeable future. HD-DVD didn't fail because of Bluray, it failed because the entire High-def disk market failed as a whole. People didn't want to pay for upgrading in 2006, and they still largely don't. Sony only stayed in the market with their BR because they leveraged their entire future on BR (including the PS3). Since Toshiba didn't have nearly as much to lose by pulling out of the HD market as Sony did/does, it was an no-brainer for them to cut their loses."

There is quite a bit of thing's that i do not agree with in this statement:

Blu-Ray is already standard,an your right that DVD meet's most people's need's but on the same token that is changeing and its going to change faster in the United states due to the digital transition. Analog set's are going to be completely phased out, and since HD TV's all have much higher resolution's Blu-Ray is already set to take advantage of the higher resolution, just like the DVD upconversion player's also, but as you can already see Blu-Ray player's already contain upconversion for  standard DVD. Yes the upconversion DVD player's are cheaper now, but so will Blu-Ray there will be a point when DVD player's will be phased out for upconversion, than upconversion get's phased out . but that will not happen for quite some time. just the same for them the same for Blu-Ray it will be on the market for quite some time because the major manuf. for dvd player's are now making Blu-Ray player's also. Adoption of Blu-Ray as a standard is over and done with.

Blu-Ray will absorb DVD over time it will happen slowly but it will happen, due to the fact that the DVD standard can be played in Blu-Ray player's, Blu-Ray does not have to beat DVD, it just has to Absorb it by people upgradeing, which the cheaper that Blu-Ry get the more inclined for people to upgrade. It does not have to happen over night. Blu-Ray is an Upgrade from DVD right now the price may be a problem for many people but it will not be for long.

As for SONY putting their Entire future into Blu-Ray...that is not the only product that Sony make's, you could say that about any product any company makes,"their putting their entire future on it" ...that's like saying Microsoft put their entire future into The XBOX360 ..its just one product. Sony invested into the Blue/Green laser's for optical drives does not mean they are "putting their entire future into Blue/Green laser's" Blu-Ray was an investment into optical drive technology just like sony invested into CD and DVD red laser development in the late 80's and 90's. you could say "that's a bad choice to put investment $$" but Sony did and they were not the only company to do also. Blu-Ray was not just  "Sony only format" Sony stuck with Blu-Ray because it was a sound investment when 11 of the largest optical drivemanuf. were all investing into the same thing.

How can you argue that Bluray is a standardized format when it's constantly in flux? Do you realize that they have realized numerous format updates since the launch of the first players? Many of the latest movies won't play on the original players because of this. Some studios were so concerned about piracy that they forced the BR coalition to change their standards mid-stream. On the flip side, when someone buys a DVD player, it works with all movies. I still have my first 5-disk carousel DVD player from 1999, and it works great with every single movie. Now THAT is called a standard configuration :)

Thanks for the amazon link, but I hardly think a $700 player is something that people will buy for their kids to watch in the backseat of the minivan. Also, no mainstream car manufacturers offer imbedded BR players in their vehicles. I think I still win on this one :P

As for sales and BR eventually absorbing DVD's, I think you're really stretching it. Most articles I've read imply that BR adoption is FAR behind what anyone predicted, especially after HD-DVD folded.
http://hothardware.com/News/Bluray-Adoption-Still-Sluggish-HDTV-Sales-Up/
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/pubs/Harris_Poll_2009_06_18.pdf

http://www.cringely.com/2009/06/is-blu-ray-a-failure/comment-page-1 /> When Toshiba decided to cut its loses on the HD-DVD format, it wasn't because it was losing to Sony. It had sold more players and more movies. In fact, the above article states that HD-DVD still has a significant lead over BR stand-alone players, which I find fascinating given how long it's been since the BR fanatics declared 'victory'. Anyhow, Toshiba decided to discontinue HD-DVD because they saw the writing on the wall, that people weren't ready for HD conversion. Those that were ready, were also the ones that were adopting digital distribution. The trick is to get to the 'mainstream' market. BR and HD-DVD were both targeting a very niche group, the audio and videophiles who also bought the failed DVD Audio format and the original movie disk, the Laser Disc. The price wasn't coming down fast enough and the regular DVD market remained incredibly strong and thus Toshiba cut their loses. It's hard to compete against $4-5 DVD at Walmart (and good movies no less).

On a technical side, DVD's have a thicker layer of coating to protect the disk (and yes, I know that BR has a 'harder' coating, but it's still extremely thin).

I also like to point to one of my all-time favorite sites, IGN, and their interesting article back in early 2008 titled "Why DVD's Better than Blu-Ray".
http://dvd.ign.com/articles/963/963916p1.html
Their most compelling reasons that DVD is better is that BR is a stopgap measure and that many must-haves simply aren't available yet. (ie: Star Wars & LotR)

BR simply missed its chance to supplant DVDs. With the current adoption rate projected, DVDs will maintain their dominance until either digital downloads take over or until the next best physical medium arrives. I wouldn't count out a new version of HD-DVD coming out in the next few years. Remember, Laser Discs were commonplace in the late 80s and 90s, but never achieved critical mass, due to price mainly (and because they were HUGE). Unless BR comes down to the price of regular DVDs, their market share gains will stall indefinitely. From my understanding, the licensing fees associated with BR are part of the cost problem.

Au Revoir

Once again Moondeep i respect your OPinion but there are many thing's you may not know about the Optical drive manuf. biz. and if you did you would not be stateing what you did.

for One you do know ALL optical drive format's are being upgraded all the time..that includes DVD and even CD there is no ammount of "one is more of a standard over the other" outside of the manuf. if the largest optical drive companies all agree on a format it's a standard pure and simple Blu-Ray is already a standard. and that Standard does indeed get updated. you mention "other format come's along" well the only other optical format is Holographic which some in the industry are and have been investing into , but here is the snag on that "BLU-RAY" is also a HOLOGRAPHIC technology. by the Time the HOLOGRAPHIC technology get's cheap enough which will not be for a very...very long time Blu-Ray will already be ahead but by that point Blu-Ray would even be eclipsed by Cloud Computeing and Digital downloads

you keep saying "targeting a niche crowd" that's not true at all ESP. since the digital transition has just now happened in the US. think about this for a sec. all those Movies people love to go see at the Movies and on home DVD player's. what were majority of those film's filmed in SD..now do you see the people that make film's are going to keep filming in SD. that the point, the DVD standard will not be enough soon to cover that  yes you can use compression like MPEG 4 but the film industy has been useing MPEG 2 and Mpeg 2 is the standard the film industry has been useing for years mainly for the BIT rate. both HD DVD and Blu-Ray is able to take advantage of that higher Bit Rate and have the storage to store it while DVD will not.

the very fact that unless you use HD DVD or Blu-Ray with standard DVD you have to lower the BIt Rate because of the storage limitation's.

this is not just about trying to target a "niche" as you say they were created because DVD as a format is getting past it's prime due to the cost of :

example

DVD18

120 mm disc size

side's:double

layers: double

data capacity: 17.1 GB

MPEG-2 VIDEO CAPACITY : 8 HOURS

now that's 8 Hours in SD resolution yes you could do HD but it would be reduced in the amount of video it could hold.Less and Less film studios are filming Movies in SD resolution's that means they Need a HD format platform to record in.

would cost way to much vs' a Blu-Ray Disc that's even a DL-BR 50 thre is a point that DVD has reached with it's price and storage capacity vs the HD FORMAT'S PRICE AND STORAGE CAPACITY.

that's the reap problem just in one area that's needed that does not include the software market but when a big market such as the movie industry needing a format like HD DVD or Blu-Ray than its going to get made and Blu-Bay since 2002 was picked by the majority of optical drive manuf. to be that format standard. which it IS

joeorc stated:
"what were majority of those film's filmed in SD..now do you see the people that make film's are going to keep filming in SD"

You lost me man. Why did you mention that the films were previously filmed in SD? Movies have never been filmed in "SD" (or standard definition) if you were in fact implying that. Film based movies have a much higher resolution than the current HD 1080p standard. When George Lucas naively filmed his newest Star Wars movies using digital projectors, he actually reverted back to a lower resolution than 35mm film. Just want to clarify that. Digital films have the potential to be great, but they're still inferior in terms of resolution (although the have less artifacts etc of course).

This is all moot of course because once the chinese plants start pumping out the next generation of DVD that is still readable on regular old DVD players there will be no BR ;)

umm. yes they were and have been..

Example:

The developmental era (1948 - 1970s): low definition TV as high definition TV

From a historical perspective ,NTSC and System-M was the first HD television transmission format.

for video:

350×240 (260 lines) VCD

330×480 (250 lines) Umatic, Betamax, Vhs, Video8

400×480 (300 lines): Super Betamax, Betacam (pro)

440×480 (330 lines): analog broadcast

560×480 (420 lines) Laser Disc, Super Vhs,Hi8

670×480 (500 lines): Enhanced Definition Betamax

Digital:

720×480 (520 lines) D-Vhs,DVD,miniDV,Digital 8,Digital Betacam (pro)

720×480 (400 lines): Widescreen DVD (anamorphic)

1280×720 (720 lines): D-VHS,HD DVD,Blu-Ray,HVD

1440×1080 (810 lines): HDV (miniDV)

1920×1080 (1080 lines): D-VHS, HD DVD, Blu-ray, HDCAM SR (pro)

10,000×7000 (7000 lines): iMAX,iMXA HD,OMNIMAX

Film:

35 mm is scanned for release on DVD at 1080 or 2000 lines as of 2005.

35 mm Original cam . negative motion picture film can resolve up to 6,000 lines.

35 mm projection positive motion picture film has about 2,000 lines which results from the analog printing from the camera negative of an interpositive, and possibly an internegative, then a projection positive.

as for china Blu-Ray is already being produced in china there is Blu-Ray production lines already there the GOVT. of Chana already have decided Blu-Ray is A HD standandard .

Nope, it was not. Blu ray is the main reason the PS3 is in third place. That, and a weak overall library at the start of the generation. They have since addressed the game library issue tremendously.

Sony had no vision at least when it came to what optic medium to use. They should have assesed that digital distribution was the way to go. They would have made their console much cheaper even with the cutting edge hardware. They would have also had the flexibility of adding big hard drives to accomodate digital content being the primary and only form of ownership.