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Forums - Microsoft - Are we even worthy of Natal?

No! All humans are unworthy. They lack the _______ required...

4 ≈ One

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@HappySqurriel: I don't know about resolution, but you're right about the framerate. Natal's motion detection works at 30 fps:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-post-natal-discussion-interview



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

@Happy - You are correct on many things. The camera captures 48 data points per person to generate the skeleton. But MS has assured us that multiplayer is capable, are they lying?



JaggedSac said:
@Happy - You are correct on many things. The camera captures 48 data points per person to generate the skeleton. But MS has assured us that multiplayer is capable, are they lying?


I don't doubt that multiplayer is possible, I just don't think that the resolution of capture per person when you are playing a single player game would remain the same if you were playing a 2 (or 4) player game.



HappySqurriel said:
Reasonable said:
To be honest I'm more than worthy. If anything I'm wondering why these things take so long to arrive. The tech for such stuff has been around for quite a while with decent SW support too. As ever its only when someone makes money with innovation (hello Nintendo) that you see it get the full push from all parties.


Depending on who you talk to, the technology to produce NATAL well hasn't been around for long and may not even exist yet ...

The digital sensors that are used to capture videos are (from my limited understanding) not different from the ones that are used to capture still images and when they capture videos you only use a small portion of a much larger sensor to capture a particular frame, and over time (in about  a second) you use the entire sensor and cycle back to the first frame. This approach has been used to capture images at 120fps at very low resolutions and is currently being used on state of the art digital camcorders to produce video at 720p/1080p at 30fps.

Now, I don't know the technical details, but I suspect that NATAL captures images at below HD Resolutions (probably very close to SD) at 30fps in order to keep manufacturing costs down. It probably doesn't have the best lenses, and a person at 6 to 10 feet away from the camera is probably pretty blurry and has some distortion (like you would see from a web-camera). On top of this, processing power alone limits their ability to track more than a couple dozen datapoints, which means that the system can focus on the big picture for a person (there skeleton) or small details (hands or face) but probably not both at the same time; and certainly not both at the same time for multiple people.

5 years ago the technical limitations of an affordable product prevented it from being produced, and 5 years from now the technical limitations will be so minimal that it will be easy to realise a device like this. The question that remains is whether the technology exists today ...

All the core elements have been around, in seperate ways, for a while.  What we're seeing is the ability, more recently, to couple fairly inexpensive cameras with software that does a decent job of the image/voice recognition with a small resource footprint.  I suspect the real challenge facing MS is getting it working very well, and consistently, without requiring much addition resource and with minimal lag due to processing of input through to the actual game (whatever it may be).

As I mentioned in a similar post I've worked on Expert Systems in the eighties from the SW point of view, as well as the use of (admitedly much more expensive) cameras in crowd tracking and flow simulation systems.  I've also worked with voice recognition and image recognition.  Like I say, I'm not saying Natal as shown has been around (or possible) for ages, but that the core ability and elements have.

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

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i'm not even a microsoft fan but i'm still rather hyped for the release of this technology. No longer will i have a wireless controller in my hand to throw when I mercilessly get disconnected in the middle of a game.



heruamon said:
According to some people, it's jsut a souped up version of what Sony and Nintendo already have...and inferior by some standards...it's all smoking mirrors of M$...lol...but developers have the kits in their hands...maybe that was smoking mirrors as well...

According to some people Micro$oft underhandly paid the media, is the devil, and wants to eat your soul.



GOTY Contestants this year: Dead Space 2, Dark Souls, Tales of Graces f. Everything else can suck it.

heruamon said:
According to some people, it's jsut a souped up version of what Sony and Nintendo already have...and inferior by some standards...it's all smoking mirrors of M$...lol...but developers have the kits in their hands...maybe that was smoking mirrors as well...

According to some people Micro$oft underhandly paid the media for Natal, is the devil, and wants to eat your soul.



GOTY Contestants this year: Dead Space 2, Dark Souls, Tales of Graces f. Everything else can suck it.

most hilarious post of the year!

i dont feel guilty at all, technology is for people. not the army. we shouldnt even have armies.

corporations and the future can bite me too.

technology is for US.



Last year's game of the year turned out to be Silent Hill : Shattered Memories (online GOTY was COD 6).  This year's GOTY leader to me is Heavy Rain.

Wii Friend Code: 4094-4604-1880-6889

Reasonable said:
HappySqurriel said:
Reasonable said:
To be honest I'm more than worthy. If anything I'm wondering why these things take so long to arrive. The tech for such stuff has been around for quite a while with decent SW support too. As ever its only when someone makes money with innovation (hello Nintendo) that you see it get the full push from all parties.


Depending on who you talk to, the technology to produce NATAL well hasn't been around for long and may not even exist yet ...

The digital sensors that are used to capture videos are (from my limited understanding) not different from the ones that are used to capture still images and when they capture videos you only use a small portion of a much larger sensor to capture a particular frame, and over time (in about a second) you use the entire sensor and cycle back to the first frame. This approach has been used to capture images at 120fps at very low resolutions and is currently being used on state of the art digital camcorders to produce video at 720p/1080p at 30fps.

Now, I don't know the technical details, but I suspect that NATAL captures images at below HD Resolutions (probably very close to SD) at 30fps in order to keep manufacturing costs down. It probably doesn't have the best lenses, and a person at 6 to 10 feet away from the camera is probably pretty blurry and has some distortion (like you would see from a web-camera). On top of this, processing power alone limits their ability to track more than a couple dozen datapoints, which means that the system can focus on the big picture for a person (there skeleton) or small details (hands or face) but probably not both at the same time; and certainly not both at the same time for multiple people.

5 years ago the technical limitations of an affordable product prevented it from being produced, and 5 years from now the technical limitations will be so minimal that it will be easy to realise a device like this. The question that remains is whether the technology exists today ...

All the core elements have been around, in seperate ways, for a while. What we're seeing is the ability, more recently, to couple fairly inexpensive cameras with software that does a decent job of the image/voice recognition with a small resource footprint. I suspect the real challenge facing MS is getting it working very well, and consistently, without requiring much addition resource and with minimal lag due to processing of input through to the actual game (whatever it may be).

As I mentioned in a similar post I've worked on Expert Systems in the eighties from the SW point of view, as well as the use of (admitedly much more expensive) cameras in crowd tracking and flow simulation systems. I've also worked with voice recognition and image recognition. Like I say, I'm not saying Natal as shown has been around (or possible) for ages, but that the core ability and elements have.

 

I was thinking of it from a comercial product perspective more than anything else ... I'm certain that state of the art equipment may have been able to achieve similar results almost a decade ago, but outside of a university lab or a few very rare business applications it (probably) hasn't become cost effective until (very) recently.