People who work harder should get rewarded for it. They shouldnt have to pay extreame amounts of tax to pay for people who dont give a shit about working. People should work for their bread not expect the government to contunily finance there laziness. There needs to be more of an incentive to work, people just dont care because they are getting GIVEN enough money anyway. I completly disagree with this form of socialism or whatever it is. Inheritance tax, where does that go? Surly all the people who have worked hard throughout there lives shouldnt be taxed for their success. Does all the inheritance money go to public spending? Im interested to know where this money ends up.

im not an expert, never claimed to be, i also said "something like" i know the example aint perfect, but tbh, youd complain about any system that made you pay taxes to help the less fortunate, so whats the point?

some people on here, are so self righteous and arrogant about this issue for whatever reason, that they seem to think that poor people are living it up on benefits and get the easy life, which is utter bullshit, you people who complain about these things, are clearly so far up your own rear ends, that the concept of being poor or needing support to get by, is  unknown to you, especially thoose of you who "claim" to have come from poor backgrounds, how dare you suggest that everyone is like you, people are different, so you did well, good for you, that dosent mean you have the right to look down on everyone else.

try responding without sounding sanctimonuos, then maybe we can have a debate, till then, i have no intrest in talking to you people.

oh and by the way, inheritance tax, i believe you only currently pay when you inheret over 300k, how many people do you think get that much? and then, why is it unfair that some goes to help pay for the public services they no doubt use?

SciFiBoy


Do you think people in England who are "less fortunate" have a hard life? It all depends on what you compare and who you compare with.

Who are you to say who has or hasnt come from poor backgrounds? People dont look down on others if they are trying their best to get out of a situation. Its only when people say they have a hard life, dont work and wonder why there in a bad situation.

Scifi Boy... it doesn't take an expert to realize where your tax system is flawed...

It takes basic mathematical skills.

It also seems to show that you've never actually paid taxes in your life?

Taxes are based off of how much you make up to that point... for example with your system it would be...

if you earn 10k or less, you pay 10% in tax (after tax you have 9k)
if you earn 20k, you pay 20% (you have 17k)


It's 10% of the first 10K you make. Then 20% of the second 10K.

Also... for someone who says they care so much... your acting like a pretty horrible person right now.  Questioning someone elses level of being poor.

The truth is... by in large those who are most liberal come from middle and upperclass upbringings over their own guilt over having it so good.

Socialism = Spreads poverty equally
Capatalism = Spreads wealth unfairly

My point is whatever the government do people are going to be poor. In every country this is the case. Dont critise people for wanting to make money and achieve in there lives. The only way everyone could be equal is communism and i thought you didnt want that.

with one post, you say poor people are doing fine and dont deserve help...

with the nexy you say you went throught hard times when you were poor...

so, there not poor because you were?

and you think because you overcame it, everyone can...

which is bullshit, you dont even consider peoples life choices, just your personal greed now that you are rich, well done, the poor person you used to be, must feel sick looking at you now.

i didnt say you were a liar, and you judged me earlier in the thread, at least mine wasnt baseless...

my post isnt out of order, your views on poverty are, especially as you were in it yourself, do you not see the hippocracy in your views?

is it really sanctimonius of me, to think that people shouldnt have to go through what you went through?

maybe if you let your life have impact on your views, rather than right wing propoganda, youd have different views.

as for people saying, i have no right to have my views, as im not as poor as the people i want to help, im glad i dont have your view of the world, if everyone did, many more poor people would die.

im getting sick of these forums aswell, everytime, i take a more liberal view of an issue, i get flamed by 5+ users, and im sick of it, all you do is piss me off, you rarely address my points, you just post flamebait, all of you, then say im wrong to get annoyed by it, on other forums, many of you would be banned for such blatantly inflamitory posts...

goodbye, enjoy flaming this and ignoring my points again, i wont be here to read them, so waste your time, not mine

SciFi boy you just don't get it.

The poor... having to work for everything they've got have more of an appreciation for hard work then those who have mostly had everything handed to them in the middle class.

Hence why the poor are more conservative when it comes to distribution of wealth even when it helps them personally.

Look at the US. The poorest states are the most conservative. The most liberal are the wealthy states.

The poor have more of an appreciation for getting up and doing things themselves. That's why they tend to be against socialism more and donate to charity more.

As it was said in the great depression... "I don't want a handout. I want to work."

His views are totally consistant.  The only people who's views on these issues aren't consistant are those who claim the poor need more help yet aren't willing to give up their own comfort to help them... and instead wish to rely on others.

The reason to understand this is easy as well. Generally what you are born with you will consider rights.

Those born rich will think the middle class have it rough for example.

Those born poor in the UK will feel bad for those in other countries... etc.

What the poor really tend to want. Those who were born in their same conditions want a few important things.

1) Their lifestyle to not detoriate if they put in the same amout of work as before.

2) To be treated the same as those with more money then them. (IE no rich people getting out crimes the poor do... etc. And not have someone treat them unfairly or pick on them.

3) Oppurtunities to imperove themselves... that they can earn... because when oppurtunites are simply handed out... they start at the bottom and move upwords... meaning the working poor and those who are activly trying to improve themselves get passed over, while the best oppurtunites end up usually going to those without the drive or ability to improve their lives.

By in large... oppurtunites just given are wasted.

Since this is about UK politics, not just whether SciFiBoy is right, I'd like to focus your intention on the Euro elections.

Labour just had their worst election since 1918 in many ways. Their share of the vote was down to a record low of 15%, down from 24% last time when /that/ was considered bad. They lost five MEP seats, one each to Conservative, Lib Dem and UKIP and two to the racist BNP. UKIP (almost solely an anti-Europe party) beat Labour to third place. And finally they lost Wales to the Conservatives, which considering their usual strength there is a disaster.

How long can Brown survive after that?

This thread went off on one it seems but all valid debates I guess. Arguement between people all living a fair and equal life regardless of social standings or what people deserve from their contribution to work and their earnings.

First of all @ soleron... You mentioned about a 22k wage person does not deserve the standard of living of a 40k wage person?

I feel I deserve a better standard of living then a lot of people at my work for earning more then me because I do infact work harder then them. I'm a skilled labourer new(ish) to the job, does it mean I work less or not as hard as them? feck no looking at my overtime. They've just been here longer. But that is personal circumstances, there are many people out there that have worked hard in their life and earn wages that make sense to that.

It's hard to define a line of what is fair based on with work ethic, education or earnings.

@SciFiBoy

You taxation thing from earlier was flawed but I got the gist of it, people seems to take the wrong idea I think and explain a 20k person getting takex more means they earn less. Problem was that you/them defined the taxation brackets as definate. This is always unfair. If however you made a exponential % taxation on wages, this might solve it. The currently tax system works on the money you earn up tocertain amounts. Up tp 5000 taxed at 5% then the next 15k is taxed at 20% so taxation is round overall to 17.5 or whatever. This is fair for whatever you earn.

@Soleron about recent Euroelections and local elections.

Bad news overall for Labour but expected. People/media are loosing faith with them, whether this is Gordon Brown is soemthign else. He is still okay to me, the people who quit his cabinet and whined have none of my respect. MPs who cannot admit to their wrong doing saying 'It wasn't wrong' in the Expenses scandals have no respect either.

Eitherway the elections have given interesting results and I wonder how they will pan out. UKIP will do nothing in Europe. I'm a full supporter of the EU until they stop supporting our farmers because our goverment doesn't. Also, I'd like more research put into saving bees.