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Forums - Microsoft - Project Natal Exercise Video could be the killer ap

daroamer said:
Khuutra said:
daroamer said:

Again, you're just arguing semantics.  In common speech "more complex" and "more advanced" are often synonymous.  To use your own example, an F16 would be considered far more advanced than the Wright brothers plane despite both achieving flight in different ways.  The WM+ and Natal both use motion to control video games, they both use different methods for achieving that, yet it's perfectly valid to compare the complexity of those two approaches in terms of technology.

I'll concede that the WM+ does have some advantages to Natal and would be a better choice in some situations but I don't think you can argue that the technology with Natal is more advanced.  My hammer is better at hammering nails than my computer is but I still consider my computer far more advanced.

Of course I'm arguing semantics, my field of study is next-door-neighbors to semanticism and linguistics is one of my passions. Arguing semantics does not somehow invalidate my point.

What you're doing is not comparing an F-16 to the Wright Brothers plane, you're comparing a Harrier to an attack helicopter. Neither is necessarily more advanced than the other, they just use dissimilar technology to achieve superficially similar ends in very specific (but different) contexts.

There are two separate arguments that can be made here, and those are the only cases in which "advanced" can be accepted as a descriptor of two technologies that achieve similar ends through distinct means.

The first is in the sophistication of any given technological part: the fact that Natal is able to read depth via an IR sensor that reads wavelengths and so forth is considerably more sophisticated than, say, the Wii remote's IR sensor, but I don't know if it's necessarily more sophisticated than the gyroscopes and accelerometers that WM+ uses. I'm not an expert there.

The second is how close it is in achieving a given purpose (your hammer is a more advanced nail-pounder than your computer, for instance), and on this front I don't have enough data to say for sure one way or another, but it looks as if playing games via motion has been made more intuitive and more efficient on the Wiimote. I don't know that for sure, of course, so I won't pass judgment, but I have the feeling that this is the definition of "advancement" that will end up mattering most. Until Natal proves itself, anyone who cares will be able to say that Wii remote is more advanced as a motion detecting game device.

Well I guess that's the point we're making, technologically I feel Natal is more advanced than the WM+ because it's doing things that no one else in the console gaming community is doing or has done.  3D sensing cameras are far more current technology than gyroscopes and accelerometers, as brilliant and groundbreaking as that controller was to video games.  Just as the Wii remote is more advanced than the Sixaxis controller. Nevermind also have face and voice recognition.  Whether one is more adept at being used as a game controller is another debate altogether but I think the technology behind Natal is more current ie. more advanced, than what is used in the Wii controller.

Just my opinion anyway.

Fixed



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ironman said:
daroamer said:
Khuutra said:
daroamer said:

Again, you're just arguing semantics.  In common speech "more complex" and "more advanced" are often synonymous.  To use your own example, an F16 would be considered far more advanced than the Wright brothers plane despite both achieving flight in different ways.  The WM+ and Natal both use motion to control video games, they both use different methods for achieving that, yet it's perfectly valid to compare the complexity of those two approaches in terms of technology.

I'll concede that the WM+ does have some advantages to Natal and would be a better choice in some situations but I don't think you can argue that the technology with Natal is more advanced.  My hammer is better at hammering nails than my computer is but I still consider my computer far more advanced.

Of course I'm arguing semantics, my field of study is next-door-neighbors to semanticism and linguistics is one of my passions. Arguing semantics does not somehow invalidate my point.

What you're doing is not comparing an F-16 to the Wright Brothers plane, you're comparing a Harrier to an attack helicopter. Neither is necessarily more advanced than the other, they just use dissimilar technology to achieve superficially similar ends in very specific (but different) contexts.

There are two separate arguments that can be made here, and those are the only cases in which "advanced" can be accepted as a descriptor of two technologies that achieve similar ends through distinct means.

The first is in the sophistication of any given technological part: the fact that Natal is able to read depth via an IR sensor that reads wavelengths and so forth is considerably more sophisticated than, say, the Wii remote's IR sensor, but I don't know if it's necessarily more sophisticated than the gyroscopes and accelerometers that WM+ uses. I'm not an expert there.

The second is how close it is in achieving a given purpose (your hammer is a more advanced nail-pounder than your computer, for instance), and on this front I don't have enough data to say for sure one way or another, but it looks as if playing games via motion has been made more intuitive and more efficient on the Wiimote. I don't know that for sure, of course, so I won't pass judgment, but I have the feeling that this is the definition of "advancement" that will end up mattering most. Until Natal proves itself, anyone who cares will be able to say that Wii remote is more advanced as a motion detecting game device.

Well I guess that's the point we're making, technologically I feel Natal is more advanced than the WM+ because it's doing things that no one else in the console gaming community is doing or has done.  3D sensing cameras are far more current technology than gyroscopes and accelerometers, as brilliant and groundbreaking as that controller was to video games.  Just as the Wii remote is more advanced than the Sixaxis controller. Nevermind also have face and voice recognition.  Whether one is more adept at being used as a game controller is another debate altogether but I think the technology behind Natal is more current ie. more advanced, than what is used in the Wii controller.

Just my opinion anyway.

Fixed

Yes, that's what I meant, thanks :)



I figures, otherwise you would be setting yourself up. lol



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Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

Khuutra said:

You cannot be serious.

What you are saying is that non-parallel technology progression can necessarily be compared in terms of linear logic, which is fallacious. You cannot be more wrong than you are being right now. Not all technology is "forward leaning", whatever that means.

The technology used in Natal and the technology used in the Wiimote are not comparable in that way. They are just different. One is not inherently more "advanced" than the other.

What you are describing is not "stripping away the need for" technology, it is finding an alternative method by which to produce the same results.

If I told you that the CPU in project Natal is more powerful then the CPU in the Wii would that finally shut you up over what advanced means?



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Well, that would certainly denote a technical advance of some sort.



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@OP -what you just described is My Shape by Ubisoft, for the Wii. It comes with a motion camera. Minus for the voice recognition part, the presentation from Ubisoft explained pretty much what you suggested.



Tyrannical said:
Khuutra said:

You cannot be serious.

What you are saying is that non-parallel technology progression can necessarily be compared in terms of linear logic, which is fallacious. You cannot be more wrong than you are being right now. Not all technology is "forward leaning", whatever that means.

The technology used in Natal and the technology used in the Wiimote are not comparable in that way. They are just different. One is not inherently more "advanced" than the other.

What you are describing is not "stripping away the need for" technology, it is finding an alternative method by which to produce the same results.

If I told you that the CPU in project Natal is more powerful then the CPU in the Wii would that finally shut you up over what advanced means?

Is processing power the only metric of advances in CPUs? What about physical size, energy consumption, manufacturing cost? If the CPU in your computer takes a 500w power supply and is 50% more powerful than the CPU in my iPod does that make the iPod CPU less advanced? Realistically, it is very difficult (potentially impossible) to demonstrate that one technology is more advanced than another unless they're directly related. It is easier to claim that something is based on newer or older technology, but claiming more advanced technology implies that one is superior to the other.



You are grasping straws now. NATAL is more technologically advanced than what either of the other two are doing hands down.



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ironman said:
You are grasping straws now. NATAL is more technologically advanced than what either of the other two are doing hands down.

Suppose we just assume that newer technology is the same as a more advanced technology, does being based on newer technology make something better? If you're looking for the fastest land vehicle for one person would a more advanced 1-Ton truck that is built on state of the art technology be as good of a choice as a Super-Bike built off of 1980s technology?

When it comes to gaming input devices, it doesn't matter if a product is based on technology from the 1960s or if something is based off of technology that comes from the future, all that matters is which system allows for the simplest, most intuitive and most expressive controls at a price that is acceptable for consumers. We know that Wii MotionPlus allows for some very simple, intuitive and expressive controls at a very reasonable price and it has yet to be demonstrated that the NATAL can even come close to matching those controls in real gaming situations.



ugh lame i have NO interest in buying an exercise game. But maybe it would allow M$ to get a piece of the pie and make more people buy Natal and then real developers will develop for it



Long Live SHIO!