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appolose on 20 May 2009
fmc83 said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
Do elaborate on what you mean.

 

 While I would, my intent was to give a good explanation of why so many Christians say "I don't believe in evolution.  I'm a Christian!".  I will say, however, that, given how in the Genesis account, God calls creation "very good" (and, if evolutionary explanation of the progress of life (billions of years of death and suffering) were true) would somewhat render the phrase meaningless (what would a "very bad" creation be like).  Also, the transition from the creation account to the narrative of Adam and Eve is rather smooth and "continuitous" (couldn't find that word on google), which would be confusing if the first were metaphorical.

A tad more than I intended to say (and there's more), but you get the drift.  Of course, many have argued (and not unconvincingly) against the reasons I have given, but I just am trying to show why I think the context strongly suggest a historical account.

 

I got many problems with this interpretation. I know, that religious extremists like you, make up many exceptions to this rule. What about new dog races? Oh yeah, that's not a new species, but it shows in a little, that very good, doesn't mean that changes must be bad.

Next thing: I assume you got a car and I know, that you use a computer and the internet. In my opinion, if you go with a hardline interpretation of the "very good", you should stay away from technology as well, as if it was good, god would have created this as well in the beginning.

 

Third: what about new illnesses? Do you blame god for them? That's, if I understand that correctly, the only way to interprete that.

I never said the appearence of new species was bad in and of itself, it's the process of getting there (amongst other things) that would make it suck (tons of death, lots of pain).  Also, the Bible says what God created was very good, not that he created every good thing.  And I blame new illnesses on the Fall (not the season).

Just as a heads up to anyone: I do not wish to argue about these points I brought up. I just intended to give my positions.

 

 



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appolose on 20 May 2009
Rath said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
Right, but see, it's not just creation that would be metaphorical - it's basically all of Genesis. Adam and Eve? The Flood? All of that? Metaphorical!

(also evolution is not pain and suffering it is the triumph of life over adversity, that is "very good")

 

 If all of Genesis could be taken metaphorically, then context would be next to useless (or, so I find).  Furthermore, an omnipotent God could find thousands of better systems that would not involve killing off every unfit creature until the right one randomly mutates apt genetics (of course, perhaps earlier) to survive (thus, putting such a system on the "very bad" part of the scale of choices, I would think). And while evolution certainly does end up with a life that eventually does prevail, it also has about a trillion times more death and pain along the way.

 

 There are a lot of things an omnipotent god wouldn't do. For example it wouldn't fuck up the designing process and for example give us and many other mammals a blind spot by putting the retinas inside out. Or give humans wisdom teeth which never were much use to us (though quite handy to apes) and just cause a lot of unecessary trouble.

I think an omnipotent god is more likely to invent evolution than to make massive cockups in the designing process .

Perhaps not, but, in the creationist doctrine, those mistakes may not have existed in the beginning of creation (much like death didn't).

 



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fmc83 on 20 May 2009
appolose said:

I never said the appearence of new species was bad in and of itself, it's the process of getting there (amongst other things) that would make it suck (tons of death, lots of pain).  Also, the Bible says what God created was very good, not that he created every good thing.  And I blame new illnesses on the Fall (not the season).

Just as a heads up to anyone: I do not wish to argue about these points I brought up. I just intended to give my positions.

 

 

 

Wait. You bring up points which you then don't want to argue??? WTF?! As this thread is dedicated by the opening post to argue, my position is, that you then please just keep them for yourself.

 

The bolded phrase makes no sense to me. I can't recall any phase except for some first world countries in the last 60 years, where this wasn't the case for humankind. It's not that life sucks, it's more that reality in nature is cruel.

 

Well if you blame them on the Fall you still blame God, cause he then must have brought them, as he is omnipotent.

 

 



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Khuutra on 20 May 2009
appolose said:

If it was a person's interpretation of the events that was recorded, that would destroy the theology of many Bible-believing Christians ("The Bible can't be wrong because it's inspired by God").  What I'm saying is, that view is impossible to hold for such Christians (not that the view itself is impossible).

As for it being blind submission, I'll say that anything I conjecture about reality is as equally blind (unproven), whether it be evolution or the Bible (if you feel like torturing yourself, you can wade through this thread to find a defense of what I've said).  Our faculties are useless without a starting knowledge.

I know. But it shouldn't. Faith in God is about more than jsut believing that he guided the hands of people who wrote his holy book. I mean, Genesis' dual (contradictory) creation myths alone do not lend to me treating the book as infallible - my faith can't be built on the veracity of the written word, especially not one that's gone through so many changes and translations. This argument might hold water if all of these people were reading the text in Hebrew as opposed to (usually) the KJV.

And I have to disagree. Conclusions we arrive at through observation are not blind, they are operating within the bounds of the faculties given to us. There's a difference. Evolution is very real. If my faith didn't allow for me to incorporate a wider view of the universe... well, I guess I'd have to drop it altogether.



appolose on 20 May 2009
fmc83 said:
appolose said:
 

I never said the appearence of new species was bad in and of itself, it's the process of getting there (amongst other things) that would make it suck (tons of death, lots of pain).  Also, the Bible says what God created was very good, not that he created every good thing.  And I blame new illnesses on the Fall (not the season).

Just as a heads up to anyone: I do not wish to argue about these points I brought up. I just intended to give my positions.

 

 

 

Wait. You bring up points which you then don't want to argue??? WTF?! As this thread is dedicated by the opening post to argue, my position is, that you then please just keep them for yourself.

 

The bolded phrase makes no sense to me. I can't recall any phase except for some first world countries in the last 60 years, where this wasn't the case for humankind. It's not that life sucks, it's more that reality in nature is cruel.

 

Well if you blame them on the Fall you still blame God, cause he then must have brought them, as he is omnipotent.

 

 

Khuutra asked me to explain why I thought the context of Genesis showed that it was not metaphorical, so I did.  I don't want to getinto a debate about it, though.

"The bolded phrase makes no sense to me. I can't recall any phase except for some first world countries in the last 60 years, where this wasn't the case for humankind. It's not that life sucks, it's more that reality in nature is cruel".

The Creatoin account implies this was not the case during the beginning.  If it were, then it wouldn't be "very good".

As for the fall, I don't blame God for it because of a free-will thing that happened.

 



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To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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appolose on 20 May 2009
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

If it was a person's interpretation of the events that was recorded, that would destroy the theology of many Bible-believing Christians ("The Bible can't be wrong because it's inspired by God").  What I'm saying is, that view is impossible to hold for such Christians (not that the view itself is impossible).

As for it being blind submission, I'll say that anything I conjecture about reality is as equally blind (unproven), whether it be evolution or the Bible (if you feel like torturing yourself, you can wade through this thread to find a defense of what I've said).  Our faculties are useless without a starting knowledge.

I know. But it shouldn't. Faith in God is about more than jsut believing that he guided the hands of people who wrote his holy book. I mean, Genesis' dual (contradictory) creation myths alone do not lend to me treating the book as infallible - my faith can't be built on the veracity of the written word, especially not one that's gone through so many changes and translations. This argument might hold water if all of these people were reading the text in Hebrew as opposed to (usually) the KJV.

And I have to disagree. Conclusions we arrive at through observation are not blind, they are operating within the bounds of the faculties given to us. There's a difference. Evolution is very real. If my faith didn't allow for me to incorporate a wider view of the universe... well, I guess I'd have to drop it altogether.

What I was saying by that was that that view would contradict anyone who believed the Bible to be truth.  Whether or not they choose to reject the Bible or the view is a different issue.  By all this, I'm merely trying to explain certain Christians' behavior, mind you.

Philisophical debates tend to drag on forever, and I just got out of a month long one.  If you'd like to see why I think empirical observations of the universe are totally useless and can tell us nothing, refer to that thread I linked to.

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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Khuutra on 20 May 2009

THat being the case, I will drop the subject. Forgive me if that seems abrupt, but I think that you are right, this will notl ead anywhere further in than we are now.



Strategyking92 on 20 May 2009
fmc83 said:
appolose said:

I never said the appearence of new species was bad in and of itself, it's the process of getting there (amongst other things) that would make it suck (tons of death, lots of pain).  Also, the Bible says what God created was very good, not that he created every good thing.  And I blame new illnesses on the Fall (not the season).

Just as a heads up to anyone: I do not wish to argue about these points I brought up. I just intended to give my positions.

 

 

 

Wait. You bring up points which you then don't want to argue??? WTF?! As this thread is dedicated by the opening post to argue, my position is, that you then please just keep them for yourself.

 

The bolded phrase makes no sense to me. I can't recall any phase except for some first world countries in the last 60 years, where this wasn't the case for humankind. It's not that life sucks, it's more that reality in nature is cruel.

 

Well if you blame them on the Fall you still blame God, cause he then must have brought them, as he is omnipotent.

 

 

I just wanted to post to say that you are being an asshole, good day to you



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appolose on 20 May 2009
Khuutra said:
THat being the case, I will drop the subject. Forgive me if that seems abrupt, but I think that you are right, this will notl ead anywhere further in than we are now.

 

 Actually, I thought I was being abrupt

But I agree, let's drop it.  I'm not ready for another 8-page debate.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
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fmc83 on 20 May 2009
appolose said:

Khuutra asked me to explain why I thought the context of Genesis showed that it was not metaphorical, so I did.  I don't want to getinto a debate about it, though.

"The bolded phrase makes no sense to me. I can't recall any phase except for some first world countries in the last 60 years, where this wasn't the case for humankind. It's not that life sucks, it's more that reality in nature is cruel".

The Creatoin account implies this was not the case during the beginning.  If it were, then it wouldn't be "very good".

As for the fall, I don't blame God for it because of a free-will thing that happened.

 

 

It's perfectly allright, that you're not interested in getting into another debate, when you just came from one which lasted one month.

I think this is interesting non the less, because as a moderate christian, it's really hard to understand the extreme views and where the points you make come from. Simply because in my country, this views are nearly nowhere to be found.

 

So if you change your mind, it would be great to have a debate with you.



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