| Final-Fan said: [edit: You read the edit, right?] |
Yea, I realize you were mostly not talking about me; I just wanted to restate my views :)
| Final-Fan said: So you're saying that the timing of GM's failure would make no difference to the economy? |
No, I think it makes a big difference. We would have been much better off forcing them into Chapter 11 when they were no longer sustainable, then giving them money for months with no gain, yet we still have to pay it back. There is no bankruptcy for the US Government.
The worst possible outcome is this one. Spending billions to prolong the inevitable is the worst solution.
I will repeat what I said the first time the Government announced a bailout:
The government is acting like there is a bomb about to go off, and they are doing everything they can to defuse it. The problem is the bomb has already gone off, and the best course of action, is to clean the mess up and start fresh.
TheRealMafoo said:
No, I think it makes a big difference. We would have been much better off forcing them into Chapter 11 when they were no longer sustainable, then giving them money for months with no gain, yet we still have to pay it back. There is no bankruptcy for the US Government. |
Once again you are completely looking at the auto companies in isolation and not looking at the economy as a whole. To use your analogy again, isn't it worth billions of dollars if you prevent a bomb that you know is going to blow up from killing 100,000 and it only kills 25,000?
I honestly don't understand why people claim the President can violate the Constitution, federal laws, and unilaterally invade other nations in the name of national defense but then turn around and have a shitstorm when the President loans companies some money for the sake of the economy as a whole.
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls. The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke
It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...." Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson
| akuma587 said: Once again you are completely looking at the auto companies in isolation and not looking at the economy as a whole. To use your analogy again, isn't it worth billions of dollars if you prevent a bomb that you know is going to blow up from killing 100,000 and it only kills 25,000? |
I am looking at the economy as a whole. Where you and I disagree, is the economic impacts that would have happened if not for the bailout.
I think the same number of people are effected negatively (possibly worse) this way, they if they had failed last year.
To use your analogy, we spent billions of dollars to not kill 100,000 people 10 months ago, but kill 125,000 people now.
@HighwayStar - GM owns Vauxhall and Opel.
Well the economy looks like its on the road to recovery, so obviously Bush and Obama didn't botch things that badly. People were frantic that we were on the verge of the Great Depression and now they are looking forward to recovery. I compliment Bush on not sitting around and twiddling his thumbs like Herbert Hoover. This was not your run-of-the-mill recession.
You are also not taking into account the subjective factor in the markets. The government taking action in the markets sends a psychological message to consumers and investors. Even if the action itself has no actual effect, the psychological impact it can have on consumers and investors can nevertheless be extremely positive.
Economics is not an exact science. You can point at charts and pie graphs all day, but the reality of the economy is too complex to simply quantify as "If you do Action X, you will get Result Y." Simply because you read in a textbook that governments shouldn't intervene in the market at all does not mean that in reality that is the most effective method.
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls. The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke
It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...." Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson
Fuck.... I hate hearing about this stuff...
15000 lost jobs
16000 lost jobs
12000 lost jobs...
Last I checked, GM was huge... how many jobs lost this time?
4 ≈ One
| akuma587 said: Well the economy looks like its on the road to recovery, so obviously Bush and Obama didn't botch things that badly |
What? Are you on crack or something?
The only thing you can point to that’s ok, is the stock market (and it’s dropped almost 400 points in the last week). Unemployment is on the rise, home foreclosures are on the rise, GDP is falling each month...
The economy every month is worse then the month before. We still have many major businesses that will go out of business.
This thing is not over, it’s just beginning.
You are simply arguing semantics. In economics, less bad results can signify recovery if those less bad results are followed by better results.
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls. The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke
It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...." Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson
| akuma587 said: You are simply arguing semantics. In economics, less bad results can signify recovery if those less bad results are followed by better results. |
hahaha, NO NO NO!!!!
If one day, we have 1000 people out of work, and the next day we have 1010 people out of work, IT’S NOT LESS BAD!
1000 people is bad, 990 is less bad. Getting more bad slower, is NOT LESS BAD!
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