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Forums - General - Russia: Waterboarding is for sissies

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6168959.ece

Regarding Chechen rebels in Russia. Long, interesting read. Kind of puts waterboarding into perspective.

“We used several methods. We’d beat them to a pulp with our bare hands and with sticks. One very effective method is ‘the grand piano’ - when one by one we’d smash the captive’s fingers with a hammer. It’s dirty and difficult work. You would not be human if you enjoyed it but it was the only way to get this filth to talk.”

A hammer would also be used to smash a captive’s kneecaps and militants would be forced to perform sexual acts. The scenes would occasionally be filmed and circulated among enemy combatants in psychological warfare.

“At first the older one denied everything,” said a senior special forces officer last week. “Then we roughed her up and gave her electric shocks. She provided us with good information. Once we were done with her we shot her in the head.

In another operation, Andrei’s unit stumbled across dozens of wounded fighters in a cellar being used as a field hospital. Some were being tended by female relatives. “The fighters who were well enough to be interrogated were taken away. We executed the others, together with some of the women,” he recalled. “That’s the only way to deal with terrorists.”

Of course the Russian soldiers can justify their actions to themselves.

“We are not murderers. We are officers engaged in a war against brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing, not even at killing children. They are animals and the only way to deal with them is to destroy them. There is no room for legal niceties in a war like this. Only those who were there can truly understand. I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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So...being better than Russia on human rights means something? That's like saying you are less crooked than Richard Nixon.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
So...being better than Russia on human rights means something? That's like saying you are less crooked than Richard Nixon.

 

 I think it is insulting to real torture victimes to consider waterboarding torture. It's like comparing a skipped meal to being starved to death.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tell that to the guy who got waterboarded 186 times, to the people who wrote the Army Field Manual, and to Congress who passed the federal laws against torture.

You could also tell that to the Framers of the Constitution.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

This isn't a victory in any way for pro waterboarders I want to make that clear.

But basically Russia are a horrible country, they have extremely bad human rights ethics and their torturing needs to stop. As well as all torture, but let's fry the big fish first.

But I'm going to say something along the lines of what Akuma said, but in a different context.

Saying you are good on human rights because you are better than russia is like saying Hitler was a loveable friendly character because he killed less people than Stalin. It's just not true no matter which way you put it.

Waterboarding is still torture



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akuma587 said:

You could also tell that to the Framers of the Constitution.

 

 I wonder what the framers of the constitution would do about foreign Islamic millitants attacking US civilians and assets?

If only there were things written in history books that would give you this kind of incite.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tyrannical said:
akuma587 said:

You could also tell that to the Framers of the Constitution.

 

I wonder what the framers of the constitution would do about foreign Islamic millitants attacking US civilians and assets?

If only there were things written in history books that would give you this kind of incite.

 

Hmm, I wonder what they would say about the incredible amount of anti-Islamic propaganda promoted Bush, Murdoch and whoever else too too.

That type of arguement goes on forever.



highwaystar101 said:
This isn't a victory in any way for pro waterboarders I want to make that clear.

But basically Russia are a horrible country, they have extremely bad human rights ethics and their torturing needs to stop. As well as all torture, but let's fry the big fish first.

But I'm going to say something along the lines of what Akuma said, but in a different context.

Saying you are good on human rights because you are better than russia is like saying Hitler was a loveable friendly character because he killed less people than Stalin. It's just not true no matter which way you put it.

Waterboarding is still torture

 

what ta hell? have u ever lived in russia?



antfromtashkent said:
highwaystar101 said:
This isn't a victory in any way for pro waterboarders I want to make that clear.

But basically Russia are a horrible country, they have extremely bad human rights ethics and their torturing needs to stop. As well as all torture, but let's fry the big fish first.

But I'm going to say something along the lines of what Akuma said, but in a different context.

Saying you are good on human rights because you are better than russia is like saying Hitler was a loveable friendly character because he killed less people than Stalin. It's just not true no matter which way you put it.

Waterboarding is still torture

 

what ta hell? have u ever lived in russia?

No, but it's not exactly a secret that Russia used to do some extremely dodgy things up until only a few years back.

 



This is like saying, well yeah we burned down the house but that guy burned down the house and the garages so we are not as bad right?